Intergas must be doing really well ...

[Mr.B]

Longterm the Intergas will outlast your vaillant 418 by quite a margin.
Group service (glowworm/vaillant) won't even entertain repairs if there 10 years or older.

Like I said earlier, they may well be the best boiler in the world - but when I go to their website to find an approved installer in my area there isn't one and when I try to ask them directly they (twice) don't have the courtesy to call me back, having failed to answer the phone in over three quarters of an hour.

And if people in the know are telling me that they're making service engineers redundant rather than taking more on then, rightly or wrongly, it doesn't endear me to them.

I was a bit concerned when I learned that they'd been taken over by an organization in the USA and hoped it wasn't a bad sign. I continue to have the same uncertanties.

 

[boolie]

OK, I'm going to make a case for the budget end of the market. I bought a Baxi Main Eco Elite 30 and had it installed about 6 years ago. It cost me ~500 at the time (that included flu and filling loop with 2 years warranty). Installed on a clean system with a magnetic filter and it's been totally fine*. Plus Baxi are British and parts are easily available!

* caveats:

• diverter valve replaced
• ignition electrodes replaced
• burner gasket replaced every 2 years
• One of the AAV's replaced because it was weeping
• stripped and stuck screw in heat exchanger door (I posted a thread about that here) - cost 120 to fix because needed a new part. I believe this fault is related to it being an aluminium heat exchanger, the latest version of the boiler has a steel heat exchanger!

 

[Mr.B]

I can't decide if, when you say it's been 'fine', that this was tongue in cheek irony, or you're actually saying it WAS fine.

If being "fine" means you've had to do the work listed then I'm not entirely sure I agree ... but, like I say, you might have meant to imply that you wasn't happy with having to to do those fixes within the first 6 years.

 

[boolie]

I can't decide if, when you say it's been 'fine', that this was tongue in cheek irony, or you're actually saying it WAS fine.

If being "fine" means you've had to do the work listed then I'm not entirely sure I agree ... but, like I say, you might have meant to imply that you wasn't happy with having to to do those fixes within the first 6 years.

I actually do consider that being fine. Reason being, never really had any downtime.. all the above points were noticed and remedied during servicing. The AAV weep was very minor. Every boiler will require a gasket change now and again, it's part of the service. Ignition electrodes will get corroded on every boiler unless cleaned every year - in my case they broke whilst being cleaned.

The servicing RGI recommended changing the diverter because baxi had upgraded to a all brass model (only cost about £25)

So the only one that was out of the norm IMO, is the stuck screw in the heat ex.. this wasnt affecting the running of the boiler by the way, and the RGI said I could leave it and it would be fine. However, I decided to remedy.

I consider most of the above akin to changing tyres/ oil/ filters / brakes of a car - every boiler will require a level of maintenance which involves replacing serviceable parts.

I find that the general public expect a boiler to work long term without any maintenance! No one thinks like that about a car. That's why even the RGI's tend to keep quiet when doing a service, most tend to poke and go - because they know the customer wont like them asking them for more money to replace a part. I alway's stand by the RGI when they service and ask them about things - making it clear that I'm not averse to replacing serviceable parts and being given a heads up about any potential problems

 

[Mottie]

• diverter valve replaced
• ignition electrodes replaced
• burner gasket replaced every 2 years
• One of the AAV's replaced because it was weeping
• stripped and stuck screw in heat exchanger door (I posted a thread about that here) - cost 120 to fix because needed a new part. I believe this fault is related to it being an aluminium heat exchanger, the latest version of the boiler has a steel heat exchanger!

Are you sure you bought a boiler? Sounds like you’ve got Trigger's broom there!

 

[boolie]

Are you sure you bought a boiler? Sounds like you’ve got Trigger's broom there!

Like I say all remedied during the service and some optional, if you're not spending any money on maintenance or replacing serviceable parts then sooner or later expect a big bill heading your way. Think of it like a car.

So boiler cost was ~500 + about £250 on parts over 6 years. Still much cheaper than the alternatives. like I say no downtime and piping hot radiators + hot water

One of the best things about Baxi is that they react to feedback and have improved the latest model. The latest model is £550 and has a stainless steel heat ex and all brass diverter + they've increased the warranty.. so you wouldn't even get the problems I had. A steal at £550. By the way this boiler is the same under the hood as the Baxi 800 (which costs 1K+)

https://www.plumbnation.co.uk/site/...0-kR2pcgUd9TLYNmAVMYGU5cgbz8YfDUaAsDdEALw_wcB

 

[Mr.B]

I actually do consider that being fine. Reason being, never really had any downtime.. all the above points were noticed and remedied during servicing. The AAV weep was very minor. Every boiler will require a gasket change now and again, it's part of the service. Ignition electrodes will get corroded on every boiler unless cleaned every year - in my case they broke whilst being cleaned.

The servicing RGI recommended changing the diverter because baxi had upgraded to a all brass model (only cost about £25)

So the only one that was out of the norm IMO, is the stuck screw in the heat ex.. this wasnt affecting the running of the boiler by the way, and the RGI said I could leave it and it would be fine. However, I decided to remedy.

I consider most of the above akin to changing tyres/ oil/ filters / brakes of a car - every boiler will require a level of maintenance which involves replacing serviceable parts.

I find that the general public expect a boiler to work long term without any maintenance! No one thinks like that about a car. That's why even the RGI's tend to keep quiet when doing a service, most tend to poke and go - because they know the customer wont like them asking them for more money to replace a part. I alway's stand by the RGI when they service and ask them about things - making it clear that I'm not averse to replacing serviceable parts and being given a heads up about any potential problems

OK, I asked - and it was a genuine question, not an attempt to stir anything up - and you've answered ... ta for that.

For the record I'll say I was very seriously leaning towards Intergas up to recent times. I went to a demonstration by the area rep. and was impressed. I've done a decent amout of checking to try to address my initial concerns that Intergas might be too "unknown" to consider or that there could be a problem getting any parts that might be needed or that there would be difficulty getting an engineer who was familiar with their boilers.

I guess that my fears could or should easily be put to rest by virtue of the fact that during the warranty period then Intergas would attend to it - but a niggle in the back of my mind worried me that Intergas might not be available within a reasonable period of time in the event of a breakdown due to the, apparently, limited number of their own engineers ... and yet now I'm told they're reducing that direct workforce - therefore the availability of local knowledge becomes more significant(at least, it does to me).

And, furthermore, I'll say that the earlier comments of "sxturbo" about the possible wisdom of sticking to, say, Vaillant, Baxi or Worcester on the grounds of their, apparently, good network of engineers and spare parts is something I'd been chewing over even before he said it.

 

[boolie]

OK, I asked - and it was a genuine question, not an attempt to stir anything up - and you've answered ... ta for that.

For the record I'll say I was very seriously leaning towards Intergas up to recent times. I went to a demonstration by the area rep. and was impressed. I've done a decent amout of checking to try to address my initial concerns that Intergas might be too "unknown" to consider or that there could be a problem getting any parts that might be needed or that there would be difficulty getting an engineer who was familiar with their boilers.

I guess that my fears could or should easily be put to rest by virtue of the fact that during the warranty period then Intergas would attend to it - but a niggle in the back of my mind worried me that Intergas might not be available within a reasonable period of time in the event of a breakdown due to the, apparently, limited number of their own engineers ... and yet now I'm told they're reducing that direct workforce - therefore the availability of local knowledge becomes more significant(at least, it does to me).

I know a guy with an Intergas, he called them about a issue and they they were quick to respond - however turned out it was an installation issue and the installer fixed it. If they'd come out and found out that it was an installation problem then they would have charged him and it would have not been covered by the warranty

Personally, I consider boilers to be similar to cars.

Some people drive mercedes, bmw's and jaguars
Some of us go for the Mazdas. Vauxhalls and Skodas

I fall into the latter camp. If you dont mind my bluntness.. I consider the premium boiler market to be nothing more than marketing b*llocks. I consider the same for the premium car market

By the way, Intergas also do a budget boiler which I've heard great things about

 

[sxturbo]

I would seriously recommend looking at the Baxi 600 series, they've really brought Baxi back in the game and you'll be hard to find an installer that doesn't like them.

The 800 series is good also just had a bigger warranty.

Having read through the thread again I must apologise for my behaviour, I was having a bad day and looks like I took my frustrations out on here. Though that shouldn't be an excuse.

Have you decided what boiler controls you wish to fit? Are you sticking with existing or thinking about getting new?

 

[Mr.B]

^^^ All Sorted

After further thought and taking notice of what others have to say, common sense is telling me that Baxi ought to be to route to go down to replace the aging Ideal Classic FF250 that has done so well (and, indeed, is still going).

I reiterate it's not going to be a combi - after considering the pros and cons of a combi (and, somewhat prematurely, having provided a 28mm gas supply and 22mm unrestricted mains water supply adjacent to the new boiler position) I'm now certain a heat only is my preference. If a future owner wants to fit a combi then it's all there for him.

I had seen (and as sxturbo confirms) that the 600 and 800 are the same (all bar the warranty and inclusion of a filter with the 800), and intend keeping the existing vented cylinder, expansion tank in the loft and three way valve etc. A Spirotech magnetic filter is installed, the water is super soft and there's loads of additive in the heating circuit.

I readily admit to not having mastered the finer points of Opentherm, load compensation or weather compensation - but rather feel I could manage without them unless installation is straightforward and operation of them is easy and reliable or unless someone tells me it's obligatory to fit them (I didn't think it was being a heat only?)

There's a Honeywell CM901 in place in the hall and a conventional heating/hot water time clock next to the cylinder in the airing cupboard - but I realise they aren't the latest, super efficient controls (but they're so easy to use and 100% reliable).

A decent local installer, familiar with Baxi, won't be a problem and, having discounted Worcester and Vaillant in favour of Baxi, I'm hoping my logic isn't flawed.

 

[sxturbo]

If your happy with your current setup then no harm in sticking with what you got,

With the Baxi the only opentherm controller that works with it and also does the hot water is the Honeywell t6r-hw. The nest doesn't work via opentherm on the Baxi as it's missing a bit of code that isn't compulsory but Baxi have used. (This may only be the case with the combi version though)

Opentherm is just 2 wires.

Opentherm is great and is super efficient I've had it fitted and with young kids it's great the rads are never molten lava levels of heat. The house is much warmer in general and never becomes uncomfortable and my bills have actually reduced.

If you have opentherm fitted hot water will need to be set to priority meaning the system will either heat the water or the rads, but never together.

It's also another expense a couple of hundred pounds,

 

[Mr.B]

^^^ Ta for the above.

Trouble is it gives me cause to ask more questions but worries me that I could easily not understand the answers

Bear in mind the present controls are the 24 year old Siemens RWB9 heating & hot water programmer - plus the Honeywell CM901 programmable therostat sited on the hall wall.

On the Siemens programmer the heating side is set to 'permanently ON' with the heating on & off times and temperatures controlled by the, conveniently wall mounted, battery powered Honeywell CM901 - which is hard wired ... (I think it's 240volt?)

The hot water 'on & off' times are set via the Siemens programmer.

If I go down the Honeywell T6r-HW I must ask if it does away with both of my current items? And, given it's wireless, I would further ask if there's a hard wired equivalent instead whereby it could simply occupy the space on the wall currently taken by the CM901 and use the same cable as is already there. When I say it's currently hard wired I mean it's cabled from its position on the hall wall back to the airing cupboard, where the Siemens programmer is (and where the HW cylinder is too).

I stress, I really don't want too much complication - if I dropped dead my wife wouldn't thank me if she suddenly found she was in charge of apparatus more difficult to understand than the current set up.

Having said that, I do accept that at present the boiler cycles on and off many, many times a day, shutting the boiler completely off and firing it back up again ... whereas I gather something like Opentherm reduces this situation, and I don't know if the new boiler would do the same if I retained the existing controls.

(I did say I wasn't very familiar with Opentherm, didn't I ? )

 

[sxturbo]

The t6r will do away with both units but controlling the hot water and heating will essentially be the same albeit done from the t6r screen.

The t6r unfortunately is not wall mounted, however you could put a small shelf (just big enough to hold the stat) where the existing thermostat is, then where the wires come out the wall turn into a single wall socket so the stat is in the same place and powered by the mains.

It certainly wouldn't be a difficult unit to use.

Your boiler without the opentherm will work exactly the same as it does now.

With the open therm, the boiler will be on for longer but at much lower temperatures and at a steady rate ( someone said imagine it like cruising at 50 on the motorway, maximum fuel consumption is found, where's as constant acceleration around town isn't fuel efficient).

Bare in mind though sticking with what you already have won't be an issue at all and you won't be any worse off.

 

[Mr.B]

^^^ Ta for the above. I just looked at the T6R HW. Blimey, what bit of kit!

But it can hardly be called simple, surely? I was amazed to see on one Youtube clip that it sends information to Honeywell servers and then relays it to the receiver box next to the boiler (I've probably got that wrong) ... without a doubt my Mrs (and me to a slightly lesser extent) would find the whole thing daunting to get the hang of .....
.... isn't there a slightly more basic one? I remember seeing the Salus 520 mentioned but \I can't remeber why ... it could have in connection with an Intergas boiler - I can't remember.

But anyway, I get the gist of what you're saying and will refine my rudimentary thoughts relative the current school of thought .... ta.

 

[bernardgreen]

I am led to believe that Intergas boilers have the ability to phone and report themselves as being in need of attention if there is a fault in the boiler.

This would be for boilers in social housing and similar projects where the residents may not be interested in maintaining the boiler in good condition and a central monitoring station can be set up.

If this a true then it would be a very good reason for specifying Intergas boilers for that sort of housing development projects but maybe that bubble ( of sales ) has burst.