Is this a C1?

[JohnW2]

Even if it weren't unlawful (which I absolutely contend that it is) ...

As I've said, you may be right, but I'm not sure how you can "absolutely contend" it to be unlawful if you can't identify the law concerned.

, then it would still be contrary to your supply agreement. As such, you still aren't allowed to do it.

I covered that. If the owner of an installation did it, then they might be in breach of their (implied) supply agreement - but, as I said, that would not be the case if a third party (such as an electrician) did it.

Interestingly, the ESB (the DSO in the south of Ireland) ....

...and, incidentally, who were my supplier in the south of England (until they became "So").

have never tolerated the practice and it is unheard of for someone to do it. They would instantly issue a €1,000 fine for it (and it's probably more now).

Under what legislation do they issue 'fines'. If they demand money without a legal basis, I would imagine that would qualify as 'extortion' or some such criminal offence, wouldn't it?

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Breach of the ESQCR I believe, secondary legislation.

The sort of things wee are talking about do not seem to be within the scope of the ESQCR, which, somewhat ironically, apply only to those (Generators, DNOs, suppliers and meter operators) who everyone accepts are allowed to pull cutout fuses....

Application of Regulations​

2.—(1) Except as provided for in paragraph (2), in so far as these Regulations apply to any generator, distributor, supplier or meter operator, they shall also apply to any agent, contractor or sub-contractor of his acting on his behalf in relation to a matter which is the subject of these Regulations.

Perhaps even more ironically, it looks as if (per above), ESQCR probably would apply to someone (such as an electrician) who had been given permission by a DNO to pull their fuses!
(

Historically no-one cared did they? I'm wondering why the change.

Are you sure that there's been an appreciable 'change'? A very significant proportion of cutouts I see have broken or absent cutout seals, implying that someone other than DNO/supplier has broken the seals (and not replaced them) at some point in time.

Have new trainees been told it's verboten, or there is more enforcement from DNO?

As I've been asking Risteard, have you ever heard of anyone being subjected to 'enforcement' because they pulled a DNO fuse- and, again as I've asked him, if you have, under what legislation/whatever has that 'enforcement' been taken?

Kind Regards, John

 

[Risteard]

Under what legislation do they issue 'fines'. If they demand money without a legal basis, I would imagine that would qualify as 'extortion' or some such criminal offence, wouldn't it?

Presumably under a Statutory Instrument (S.I.).

 

[bsr]

The sort of things wee are talking about do not seem to be within the scope of the ESQCR, which, somewhat ironically, apply only to those (Generators, DNOs, suppliers and meter operators) who everyone accepts are allowed to pull cutout fuses....

Section 35 (offences) says that:
any person who fails to comply with regulation 18(3), 21, 22 or 25(1) ...shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.

Section 21 says:
No person shall make or alter a connection from a distributor’s network to a consumer’s installation... without that distributor’s consent

So some bits supply to everyone

 

[LeeJC]

This seems unusual to me, in the past electricians I have used have pulled the fuse and got on with it.

Believe it or not, from speaking to them it isn't the DNO or Legality of altering an installation that worries them about pulling the cut out fuse. What they are most concerned about is the comeback on the householder when the 'Smart Meter' reports that the incoming supply has been interrupted and suppliers start the whole 'we have reason to believe you may have tampered with 'our' equipment/bypassed our metering system/etc'

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

But surely that would be the same if the supply were interrupted using the officially fitted isolation switch. (Octopus fitted one for us when they put a 'smart' meter in but said they were going to do it anyway as standard policy.)

Sorry, I withdraw that. The switch comes after the meter of course!

 

[JohnW2]

Section 35 (offences) says that: any person who fails to comply with regulation 18(3), 21, 22 or 25(1) ...shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.

It does.

Section 21 says: No person shall make or alter a connection from a distributor’s network to a consumer’s installation... without that distributor’s consent

It's actually Section 25(1) (not 21) which says that. However, I would suggest that it's at least debatable as to whether pulling a cutout fuse (to facilitate safe working on an installation) constitutes "making or altering a connection from a distributor's network" I would personally say that it does not really come within the spirit of that statement.

So some bits supply to everyone

It does seem that way, but I find it very odd that a piece of legislation can define 'offences' on the part of people other than those to whom it appears to say [in 2(1) ] that the legislation applies. I'll have to ask my pet family barrister about that one!

However, I don't know why we are spending time discussing this theoretical (almost hypothetical) issue, given how widespread the practice we are discussing has been, and probably continues to be, without any apparent 'consequences' that anyone can cite ever having resulted.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Presumably under a Statutory Instrument (S.I.).

There's no point in 'presuming' unless you can tell us which one.

In any event, whatever legislation (SIs or whatever) that exist in 'the south of Ireland' are irrelevant to the situation in the UK.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Risteard]

There's no point in 'presuming' unless you can tell us which one.

In any event, whatever legislation (SIs or whatever) that exist in 'the south of Ireland' are irrelevant to the situation in the UK.

Kind Regards, John

Because I don't have any need to look up which S.I. as, like every other Electrician I know not to do it. The ESB quite literally won't tolerate it. I've seen murders before from them when an ESB seal was missing.

 

[JohnW2]

Because I don't have any need to look up which S.I. as, like every other Electrician I know not to do it.

That's up to you.

The ESB quite literally won't tolerate it. I've seen murders before from them when an ESB seal was missing.

As before, practices, regulations and laws in a non-UK country are irrelevant to the discussion in this forum.

"I'm out"

Kind Regards, John

 

[mfarrow]

View attachment 306074
Think I’m covered

You just need one of these. In fact, any manufacturer will do as the aperature of the fuse carriers/MCBs is the same, as is the DIN rail. MK and Schneiders are prettier I think. It's busbars that change.

And I doubt anyone will complain about type testing.

 

[JohnW2]

You just need one of these. .... And I doubt anyone will complain about type testing.

Other, perhaps, than eric

Kind Regards, John

 

[LeeJC]

You just need one of these. In fact, any manufacturer will do as the aperature of the fuse carriers/MCBs is the same, as is the DIN rail. MK and Schneiders are prettier I think. It's busbars that change.

And I doubt anyone will complain about type testing.

That one’s actually upside down to go in a Hager board. The cutout for the busbar is at the top in the picture. But…..
They don’t fit.




Much much betterer.
I could of course remove the tails to get it to maybe actually fit…… oh wait no I can’t do that cos it means currently removing the cut out fuse.

 

[mfarrow]

Ahh... I didn't see that coming. Maybe that's why I keep a stock of these: https://www.toolstation.com/mk-mcb/p11078

Edit: just realised they're on clearance (sigh). OK these then: https://www.screwfix.com/p/british-general-fortress-abs-plastic-consumer-unit-blank/5390p, or whatever looks workable.

As well as being dirt cheap, they're also hollow where the busbar is, could be trimmed down if otherwise, and can be installed just by just squeazing the top/bottom from the front.

Some photos of the MK and Hager side by side:

 

[JohnW2]

.... and can be installed just by just squeazing the top/bottom from the front.

I imagine someone is bound to ask, so ... can they be as easily removed "by just squeezing the top/bottom from the front" (which 'they' would probably describe as "without use of a tool" ) ?

Kind Regards, John