Moving from Economy 9 to one rate/day tariff has affected how my thermal store works

[Psych1965]

Yesterday I swapped my RTS meter (two rates-Economy 9) over to a Smart Meter as I want to be on a one rate tariff; my radiators are electric and I no longer have storage heaters & my only appliance that is currently on economy nine is my thermal store that heats my water.

When the thermal store was installed, I was on an economy 9 rate/tariff. I had two Timeguard timers installed that are connected to the thermal store; the timer on the left was my off-peak supply (till yesterday) and the red light was always on-indicating it had power supplied to it. That timer was connected to my lower (off peak) immersion, and the right timer was for the "boost" on the 24/7 supply and that is connected to the top immersion.

When the electricity company meter guy came I explained that I want to keep my off-peak supply *live*, but moved over to a 24/7 supply. My electrician told me to tell him that "I want both meter tails put on the 24/7 supply". He assured me that he had done just that.

However shortly after he left I went into the cupboard where the thermal store is and noticed that the red light on the left-hand timer was faded; it was not on (indicating that there was no power to that timer). The red light on the right hand timer (24/7 supply) was red-indicating that there was power coming into that timer.

So as far as I'm aware ,yesterday there was no warming up of my water from the lower immersion-the old off-peak supply. However this morning when I woke up, I checked the cupboard and lo and behold the red light on the left timer was on, so I thought problems solved.

However, an hour later I went into the cupboard again and saw that this light was off again, indicating no power to the left timer. Although I have my left timer programmed to come on at certain times, the immersion doesn't kick in at those times (since yesterday); the water wasn't warming up yesterday during the times I've set the timer to, and it hasn't been warming up this morning at the times at the time was set to. I do not know what caused the red light to come on this morning but somehow it has gone off again.

Having done my own research this morning looking at various articles online and different forums I'm questioning whether the timer (Timeguard) that I have connected to the off-peak is the right timer now that I'm on one rate/tariff. I can't help but think that the answer to my issue lies somewhere in this thread, but I can't make head or tail of this:

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Specifically this:

"My understanding is the e7bx you have is connected to both your normal rate daytime supply, and also your cheap rate supply, and provides the ability to manually switch immersions and give a boost function. It does not itself contain a timeswitch but relies on the meter cheap rate timeswitch. So daytime rate and night rate supplies in, and connections to the immersions out.

The proposed replacement is itself a timeswitch, and can control two immersions, but it only has one permanent supply in.

It depends on your supply and billing arrangements as to the viability of the swap. You would need to connect the new timeswitch to your normal rate supply for the clock to run all the time, so the question is - if you consume power during the cheap rate period from your full rate supply, are you charged at the lower rate? In which case you could wire the new timeswitch thus, and ensure the clock 'on' and 'off' periods are within your suppliers time periods.

Then you will have a live cheap rate supply cable that now has nowhere to go in the new timeswitch"!

My situation is this: I currently have two timers connected to my thermal store that heats my hot water. When I was on Economy 9, I had my Off Peak timer come on 2-3 times/day at the cheap rate times. I never had any need to use the Boost (top immersion-connected to the timer on the right).

Now that I'm on one rate/day-do I *need* two timers? I do want to retain the boost function, just in case I never need to use it.

But I am confused as to why my left side timer (that was connected to my old/former Off Peak supply) is not getting Power (consistently) when it was supposed to be put on the 24/7 supply?

Is the timer that I have not compatible with a one rate/day tariff?

Photos are attached-one from last night when only the red light on the right timer was on, and then bizarrely, both red lights were on this morning-and not at a time that the timer was set to come on. And an hour later the red light on the left timer went off again.

If any of you have a clue as to what went wrong when my supply was moved from Economy 9 (two supplies) to one, please advise. I'm trying to get my electrician over on Monday.

Many thanks!

 

[ericmark]

Some smart meter have two outputs, others have one, and the supplier can with two output type switch the second output when they want, so could be on 24/7 or could be switched off at some times of the day.

So the question is has the meter 4 or 5 wires coming from it? I will guess 5?

 

[Psych1965]

Thanks very much, Eric-yes, it has 5. In fact, the meter guy was very clear in telling me "your former meter had 5 wires, and the new one also has 5"-he said he was swapping a like for like. Strangely though, when I logged onto EDF's website and checked my new tariff details, for some reason it states daytime/nighttime, whereas in the email they sent me it confirms I'm on a one rate/day tariff. I've emailed them to ask the Q. because I don't want two rates-I specifically asked for one rate/day.

So, given what you wrote, what does this all mean re-how my timers are working? (or not, as is the case for the left one, which used to be my Off Peak and should now be on the 24/7 circuit.

 

[ericmark]

The old economy 7 had a white meter, and the supplier was responsible for the times when off-peak was supplied, this resulted in not getting the off-peak rate for using the washing machine, tumble drier, and dishwasher overnight. So in latter versions, the timing was left to the user. This is what I have, with an EV tariff which runs midnight until 5 am, although they have not said if that is BST or UTC, so I only use it for 4 hours.

The split tariff, resulted in a lower standing charge, and a higher peak rate, now 31.31p per kWh was 28.something can't remember exact amount, but off-peak dropped to 8.95p per kWh, and we hardly use any peak power, the solar panels and the batteries, mean in the main we only use off-peak.

The supplier can remotely change the off-peak output, and make it run 24/7, and they will also have an app for the phone. Mine shows me energy used in both kWh and £, and my average for September is 16.1773p per kWh, so with the app very easy to see if single or dual tariff works out cheaper.

My DHW can be heated with my oil boiler or electric, when using the oil boiler, I would set up 4 x ½ hour slots per week, so it does not need DHW heating for long, and heating overnight is likely enough.

 

[Psych1965]

Thanks, for this, Eric. So, to be clear-I now have a smart meter, but I am no longer on Economy 9. I can also see my usage on the gadget that I have in my flat. However, I am still not understanding why, my former Off Peak timer (which should now be a 24/7 timer) is not "on"-from the way it has been functioning it seems it is not connected to the 24/7 supply, and if it *is*-something is not working well now that it *is* on the 24/7 supply.

 

[ericmark]

The fix can be done remote, by your supplier, it seems you still have a split rate, but it may be the supplier has not yet set up the meter.

 

[Psych1965]

Thank you, Eric! This is what I am thinking. When I log into my EDF account, it shows under my Tariff details-a day rate and a night rate. But in the email confirmation they sent me re-my new "energy" plan-it shows I am on one fixed rate. I am so angry with them, and stressed-they were supposed to come out today to fix things but because I have hot water (for now)! they just informed me that this is not an emergency and are not coming out.

 

[Psych1965]

Update: yesterday AM and this AM I opened the cupboard door where my water cylinder is (yesterday at 6:40AM and this morning at 6AM) and both red lights on both timers (what was my Off Peak timer and what is my 24/7 timer) were on: so I know that my Off Peak timer is getting power to it. As of 8:14AM this morning the red light is still on the (former) off peak timer, but yesterday at 7:40AM it was no longer on. My issue now is that the (former) Off Peak timer/immersion that should now be on 24/7 supply is not coming on at the times I've set the timer for. It is coming on in the middle of the night/early morning and I don't know what time it is coming on, because I'm asleep pre-6AM.

Before EDF swapped my old RTS meter for a Smart Meter they advised:

If they can commission my smart meter on site-if signal is good….they can switch me over to Standard variable tariff. If they can’t do it on site, they’ll need to do it remotely. I will be on a standard variable tariff for 5 days and I can then switch tariffs".

But I was told by the meter guy on Friday-that he was able to do what he needed to do on site.

So I am now left wondering: *is* there something EDF need to do on their end (remotely) to fix this mess? Is there something they can do/need to do, such that my water cylinder does not come on in the middle of the night, at random times, and *does* come on at the times I set my timer for?

When my supply was Off Peak (left timer) the timer worked fine-it came on at the set times and did *not* come on at any other times. This allowed me to control how much I spend on heating my water.

But given my water cylinder (thermal store) is coming on in the middle of the night, and not coming on when I have set it to-I am just not understanding why this is. EDF had strict instruction to feed both meter tails (Off Peak and Peak) into the 24/7 supply so that my (former-pre-Friday) Off Peak supply is now on 24/7 supply.

What is happening overnight is something I just can't understand.

Does this normally take a few days in the back-end of EDF to iron out when one is switching from an old RTS meter to a Smart Meter, and switching from Econ 9 to a 24/7 supply?

EDF had also advised on the phone before the meter was swapped over:

I will be put on Economy 7. He said I can be on Economy 7 and be billed one rate, and they can swap me over to Standard tariff remotely. If meter guy comes with a two rate Economy 7 (Smart) meter-then it would be down to customer service to put me on one standard tariff. There are two types of smart meters: one with one rate and one with two rates (Economy 7). He thinks that I will be given an Economy 7 meter. If I get Economy 7 installed, I can still be billed on a single rate tariff. I would need to phone EDF.

What I am uncertain of is:

a) whether I do have an Economy 7 meter-is there any way I can tell on the meter itself or do I need to ask EDF?
b) does having an Economy 7 meter prevent me from being able to use the Timeguard timer?

When I was on Economy 9, I was able to program the timer to come on for an hour here and there.

But at present, the former Off Peak supply is coming on overnight and *not* coming on at the times it is set to vis a vis the timer.

1) Does anyone know whether the below meter *is* an Economy 7 meter and if so, what are the implications of having an Econ 7 meter if I want to rely on my Timeguard timer to control when my thermal store heats my water?

2) Can anyone advise please as to what I need to ask EDF tomorrow? I honestly don't know what "set up" they have left me with.

Many thanks!

 

[Psych1965]

Yet another update: I believe what EDF have done is moved me from an Economy 9 to an Economy 7. I've just emailed them to ask if they can switch my smart meter out of Econ 7 mode....apparently they can do this remotely but what I don't know is whether that would also put my existing Econ 7 supply on the 24/7 supply which is what I had been asking for all along. *I* want to be able to control when my water cylinder heats up-but I've figured out myself that is must be on Economy 7 (Off Peak) right now and *not* on the 24/7 supply-which explains why it comes on overnight and by 8:45AM the red light on the Off Peak timer is *off*.

 

[ericmark]

I have done the reverse, gone from single tariff to duel, and I wanted to also get paid for export, it is a nightmare, it is easy looking at the tariff rates, and saying this is the best for me, but that does not include how the supplier is willing to help in the transfer, EV, Economy 7, and Economy 10, never heard of Economy 9 until your post, but all have different rates, it is not simply duel tariff and single tariff rates.

And the standing charge also changes, so for me, looking at four variables, and if some tariffs are even available to me. It seems British Gas will allow me to have an EV tariff, but Octopus want details of vehicle and charge point before you can have it.

EDF is government owned, but not our government but the French government, so not really a level playing field with the rest.

I have been trying to get paid for export for a year now with British gas, without success, it seems Scottish Power is not much better, Octopus has good reports, but since not able to have an EV tariff, their rates are not as good as British gas. And the £75 exist fee from British Gas does not help.

What is important is what rate you are being charged, my single rate was may duel rate is so cost 1.74p more for peak power, but standing charge down 3.07p however if I use the app to see average cost, as said around 16p per unit, so I am gaining a heck of a lot having an off-peak supply. In the main due to solar panels and storage, but until one has used the power for a time, one has no idea as to which will work out cheapest.

Unfortunately the smart meter is rather dumb, it tells one very little, my software shows each day import, export, how much in/out of battery, how much solar, and how much I have used, and each day I can see how it has gone, I can see my battery charged over night, until 5 am, and then it has supplied the house until now, and at this point I am starting to recharge the battery, getting 850 watt from solar, and using 431 watt, so rest going into the battery, smart meter app is two days behind, so rather useless. Since neither drawing or feeding power into the grid, for most of the day, the in house display (IHD) flits from import to export all day, but needle stays at zero. And meter is so complex to read, not a clue what it is showing.

I need a Smart meter to be able to get duel tariff, if I did not want duel tariff, I would not have a smart meter, there really is no point. I pay a direct debit of £81.35 per month, it was £173.90 before solar, idea it seems is I over pay in summer, which means I don't pay extra in winter, but at +£984.35 in credit, and September use including standing charge £59.45 one has to ask, is that figure not a bit OTT, had I owed them that much, sure there would be debt collectors at the door. So much for the adverts on why have a smart meter.

When my smart meter was fitted, asked the installer one simple question, is the time BST or UTC (was called GMT) and he could not answer that simple question.

 

[Psych1965]

I hear you, Eric, and though your situation is different to mine, you are highlighting the frustration in moving tariffs/meters/suppliers, etc. You are also highlighting how very little the meter installers actually know about many things. Most frustrating!

I *do* know what the standing charge is for Economy 7 and for the fixed (one year) tariff I want to be on: there is a big difference: 60.78 versus 41.58. It's not a significant difference per year, but for me, what is more important is that I can turn my water cylinder on when *I* want and am not reliant on Economy 7, 9 or whatever # they offer! I don't want them controlling when *I* can use my appliances. Which is why I asked my electrician to put my new electric radiators on the 24/7 supply and *not* on Economy 9.

I also agree in that smart meters are rather dumb. I've always said that the folk who run the Genius Bar at Apple stores are not really geniuses-I often know more than they do.