New Garage Electrics

[scottb]

HI all - its me again.
Generally this is an answer for gary69, but also information for all who wishes to read it.

To be a member of a competent persons scheme, That person has to SELF CERTIFY his/her own work. He/she must therefore produce either a minor works certificate or an electrical installation certificate for the works he/she completed.

It is currently illegal for anyone to install equipment without doing this. It is actually a criminal ofence to install equipment and not self certify it. (PART P - JANUARY 2005).
This act also carries a £5000.00 fine if one is caught.
I could actually telephone the police (not that I would) and they could arrest people if it was known that they were installing illegally, as I said earlier - It is a CRIMINAL OFFENCE!

I, as a contactor cannot test another mans work - unless that work already has a certificate to say that it has been certified by another person first! or if the work was completed before January 2005.

Then the inspection that I would be undertaking is known as a Periodic Inspection and ultimately I would produce a Periodic Certificate for the circuits that I test.

Hope this is helpfull.

seahawk2nige - please could you advise me as to where I can obtain the minor works cert and electrical installation cert from please. Thanks

 

[Spark123]

http://www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/forms.cfm

 

[gary79]

Oh. The Building Inspector never mentioned anything about fees. I suppose he's gonna hit me with that when he's watched me undertaking the work.

A theoretical question for you also. Say I was still a practicing electrician to this day working for a company and I wanted to do some work in my own home,for instance installing a new circuit or a CU change where do I and others in that position stand in relation to Part P and Building Regs?

To be honest I'm probably repeating myself here just wanted to make sure because my friends are unsure of this also

 

[Spark123]

If the company you work for is registered with a competent person scheme and you can persuade them to allow you to carry out the work and have one of their competent person inspect / test the install I don't see a problem, you may have to reimburse their costs. You would also likely have to sign for Design and Construction though on the EIC.

 

[selfbuildy]

The reply of ban all sheds-Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:50 pm

Impressive reply!

Must have started writing it in the morning!!!!!

What a bite! Fishing for a goldfish, reeling in a Great Whale!!!

 

[1974stephen]

This was GREAT reading (informative too). Can the "discussion" not carrry on? Ding ding, round two.

 

[seahawk2nigel]

16th Edition wiring Regulations 110-04-01, this states...

The wiring regulations are non-statutory regulations. They may however, be used in a court of law in evidence to claim compliance with statutory regs.

This means that our installations are obviously goverened by the regs in respect of good working practices and that they are governed by Statutory Requirements of the Building regs and aslo Health and Safety.

Breach of these statutory regs would mean an injustice of the law..accepeted but also, although BS7671 is non-stat but written as a minimum standard for good installation practices, breach of this would then be contravening Health and safety, as the regs are written to a minimum level of health and safety as well as good practices - which would certainly be an issue!

Gary 79 - with respect to your question...Its the company that is registerd not each employee therefore if a an employer from that company did work outside of the remit of that company, then No he wouldnt be registered, but if he was qualified to install and able to give you a certificate, then he may register the work with the building control, of whom would come out and check his work. In S.Wales (Swansea) the Building Control charge £250.00 for this service.
Hope this answers your question.

Certificates

There are generally three major certificates that we use...
1. Minor Works
2. Electrical Installation Certificate
3. Periodic Certificate

Firstly as Spark 123 said these are available from the IEE web site, free download - http://www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/forms.cfm, alternatively you may copy them from the back of BS7671 or from Guidance note 3 Booklet which relates to Inspection and testing.

Okay about the certificates...

1. Minor Works

This is produced when adding items of equipment (e.g. extra socket) to and EXISTING CIRCUIT.

2. Electrical Installation Certificate

This is produced for the installation of a new circuit (e.g shower circuit) or for a complete new installation. This means that the person installing is responsible for the DESIGN, CONSTRUCTION & INSPECTION AND TESTING. In large companys, yes these could be three different signatures, because they all work for the same company!

3. Periodic Certificate

This is given for an inspection of an installation for many reasons. i.e insurance purposes, change of use, change of ownership etc. I cannot give this certificate for testing a new circuit that I did not install, as I did not design or construct it, as the person who installed that new circuit should have produced an Electrical Installation certificate for the completed work.

THIS IS A MESSAGE FOR ALL PERSONS THAT WOULD LIKE INFORMATION ON WIRING MATTERS AND LEGISLATION WITH RESPECT TO OUR ELECTRICAL INSTALLATIONS.

DONT ASK BAN ALL SHEDS AS HE REALLY DOESNT KNOW WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION. HE MAY WELL HAVE STUDIED LAW AT SOME TIME, BUT THATS ABOUT IT!

If ban all sheds disputes this, then lets see a copy of ALL your electrical qualifications. I would be happy to put mine up for viewing on this forum.

BALLS IN YOUR COURT - LETS PLAY!

 

[Themainman]

I've been following this with extreme interest. Seahawk is well conversant with the requirements of BS7671.

They are indeed non-statutory and may be used in a court of law in evidence to claim compliance with a statutory document.

There are also inferences to statutory terms "shall" & "reasonably practicably" as an example.

As for working on or certification of an installation (whether an addition of a new circuit or an alteration). BS7671 clearly states that

(130-07-01) No addition or alteration, temporary or permanent shall be made to an existing installation unless ........the condition to the existing installation is safe

(721-01-02) It shallbe verified that every alteration or addition complies with the regulations and does not impair safety

(711-01-01) Every installation shall during erection and upon completion before being put into service be inspected and tested to verifyso far as is reasonably practicablethat the requirements of the regulations have been met

(Chapter 74) States that Upon completion, a certificate must be provided. These certificates must be signed or authenticated by a competent person or persons. When signing (whether on form F1 or F2) the person is signing for the design, installation and inspection and test.

An individual cannot therefore sign someone else's work unless they have been involved in all stages as mentioned by seahawk.

As for building regulations, if the work is notifiable, it is simple, Not only must a certificate be issued as described by seahawk, Building control must also be notified.

 

[seahawk2nigel]

Yipee - hooray - at last

Thankyou TheMain man...its nice to see that other people understand whats right and wrong.

Unfortunately... BAN ALL SHEDS will have something to say, and undoupftfully attempt to contradict your statements with some lawfull regulation of which, so it seems, is all he knows (shame its not electrical though).

Watch this space!

kind regards

seahawk2

 

[ban-all-sheds]

16th Edition wiring Regulations 110-04-01, this states...

The wiring regulations are non-statutory regulations. They may however, be used in a court of law in evidence to claim compliance with statutory regs.

True.

This means that our installations are obviously goverened by the regs in respect of good working practices and that they are governed by Statutory Requirements of the Building regs and aslo Health and Safety.

Sort of true. Building Regs etc require certain standards of "reasonable safety", and one way of ensuring that is to work to BS 7671, but it is also possible to meet the requirements without working to BS 7671.

Breach of these statutory regs would mean an injustice of the law..accepeted but also, although BS7671 is non-stat but written as a minimum standard for good installation practices, breach of this would then be contravening Health and safety, as the regs are written to a minimum level of health and safety as well as good practices - which would certainly be an issue!

If you'd done something unsafe, then you'd be in trouble for doing something unsafe, not for contravening BS 7671. You say that "breach of this would then be contravening Health and safety" but it is quite possible to breach the wiring regulations and not end up with an unsafe situation.

In large companys, yes these could be three different signatures, because they all work for the same company!

There is no requirement for them to work for the same company.

3. Periodic Certificate

This is given for an inspection of an installation for many reasons. i.e insurance purposes, change of use, change of ownership etc. I cannot give this certificate for testing a new circuit that I did not install, as I did not design or construct it,

So how old does a circuit have to be before you can carry out a PIR?

DONT ASK BAN ALL SHEDS AS HE REALLY DOESNT KNOW WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION.

Since we've not discussed anything to do with electrical installation work itself, only some of your mistaken ideas about some legalities, I wonder on what basis you say that?

It isn't, of course, relevant to whether I understand the law, but I believe that I actually know a great deal about electrical installation work.

As it's not something we've discussed, I'm curious to know not only on what basis you said that, but why you said it...

If ban all sheds disputes this, then lets see a copy of ALL your electrical qualification. I would be happy to put mine up for viewing on this forum.

Irrelevant.

Firstly, as I said, I have never claimed to have any electrical qualifications, so nothing that I've said here is dependent on me having any.

Secondly, you're gearing up to create an ad hominem fallacy - are you sure you want to go there?

BALLS IN YOUR COURT - LETS PLAY!

An interesting technique. You say things that are wrong, I challenge them, you ignore the challenges and make new and unrelated statements that are not wrong, and then invite a response, presumably hoping that an inability to argue with the new statements will be taken to mean that you've been right all along.

It is currently illegal for anyone to install equipment without doing this. It is actually a criminal ofence to install equipment and not self certify it.

This is so inaccurate that it beggars belief. Please go away and read Statutory Instrument 2004 No. 3210 The Building (Amendment) (No.3) Regulations 2004 and see what it says about work done by people who cannot self-certify.

Respond, please

I could actually telephone the police (not that I would) and they could arrest people if it was known that they were installing illegally,

In theory they could, but they would first want to be pretty sure that an offence had been committed - they would not just take the word of some ignorant Joe Public who phoned them.

Respond, please.

I, as a contactor cannot test another mans work - unless that work already has a certificate to say that it has been certified by another person first! or if the work was completed before January 2005.

What on earth do you think happened on that date that affects whether or not you can carry out inspection and testing of an installation?

Respond, please.

You cannot get someone else to test your work as to give an electrical installation certificate, that person must have undertaken the three stages…that is, the Design, Construction and Inspection and Testing. This is a FACT!

Is it indeed?

Then what do you make of the FACT that there are two versions of the BS 7671 EIC. One where one person signs for Design, Construction and Inspection & Testing, and one where up to three different people sign separately for Design, for Construction and for Inspection & Testing?

Respond, please.

Further more, I have attended seminars with the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (OPDM) on Part P and Notifiable works...

And did they actually tell you that it is a criminal offence to install equipment and not self certify it?

Respond, please.

 

[Themainman]

Gary79.

If you are not a member of a competent persons scheme, eg Elecsa, NICEIC etc, before starting work, inform building control to comply with statutory requirements.

It was not envisaged that at the introduction of this scheme in January 05 that people would use this method and therefore local authorities are struggling to cope with demand.

They will not come out to 'observe' your working practices. Depending on the scale they may request to inspect at stages. Similar to a building project.

However, to comply with BS7671 it is highly likely that a certificate be requested by building control.

You will therefore also need to certify your work as a guarantee of compliance with BS7671. As a practicing electrician you will be familiar with the requirements of BS7671. Follow the advice of seahawk and spark123 they know what they are talking about

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Yipee - hooray - at last

Thankyou TheMain man...its nice to see that other people understand whats right and wrong.

More attempted deflection - the issue is not what the Wiring Regulations say, the issues are the things you said about the legality of not self-certifying installation work, about not being able to test other people's work, about how something changed with regard to I&T in January 2005, about how you got all this from the ODPM etc.

Unfortunately... BAN ALL SHEDS will have something to say, and undoupftfully attempt to contradict your statements with some lawfull regulation of which, so it seems, is all he knows (shame its not electrical though).

Ah - so will you be pleased when I contradict some of what he says, or disappointed when I do so on the basis of what the Wiring Regulations actually say?

. . . . .

I've been following this with extreme interest. Seahawk is well conversant with the requirements of BS7671.

I'm sure he is.

They are indeed non-statutory and may be used in a court of law in evidence to claim compliance with a statutory document.

True.

There are also inferences to statutory terms "shall" & "reasonably practicably" as an example.

As for working on or certification of an installation (whether an addition of a new circuit or an alteration). BS7671 clearly states that

(130-07-01) No addition or alteration, temporary or permanent shall be made to an existing installation unless ........the condition to the existing installation is safe

(721-01-02) It shallbe verified that every alteration or addition complies with the regulations and does not impair safety

(711-01-01) Every installation shall during erection and upon completion before being put into service be inspected and tested to verifyso far as is reasonably practicablethat the requirements of the regulations have been met

Those aren't "statutory terms", they are just words. The Wiring Regulations are full of statements about what shall/must/may/should be done in order to comply with the Wiring Regulations. What point are you trying to make?

(Chapter 74) States that Upon completion, a certificate must be provided. These certificates must be signed or authenticated by a competent person or persons.

Indeed it does. Please note "person or persons".

When signing (whether on form F1 or F2) the person is signing for the design, installation and inspection and test.

Chapter 74 does not say that.

An individual cannot therefore sign someone else's work unless they have been involved in all stages as mentioned by seahawk.

Can you please quote the part of the Wiring Regulations that says that?

As for building regulations, if the work is notifiable, it is simple, Not only must a certificate be issued as described by seahawk, Building control must also be notified.

1) The Building Regulations do not require that an EIC or MEIWC be issued. It's extremely easy for you to check that I'm right - simply look at Statutory Instrument 2004 No. 3210 The Building (Amendment) (No.3) Regulations 2004 and see if you can find somewhere where it says otherwise.

2) I agree that if the work is notifiable, LABC must be notified. I've never argued otherwise, and when seahawk described the process for notifiable work carried out by someone who could self-certify I agreed with that.

 

[seahawk2nigel]

Respond - good god man (or I think you are) can't you see that I have!

I said previously that I am not going to get into an email war with you or any one else, so therefore i am about to make my final statment and bury the hatchet with this because I feel that irrespective what i say - there's always a criticism returned from an individual.

This individual is stating that as long as you follow Building Control or some other legislation (or I think that is what he's saying) then Joe-public can do any kind of electrical work - alledgidly legally -with no comebacks, irrespective of THE IEE WIRING REGULATIONS - BS7671.

What I am saying here is that if anyone is installing electrical circuits make sure that you are a compent person, or that you get a competent person to do the work for you and ensure that he/she adheres to both the building regulations and most importantly the wiring regulations, otherwise one could find themselves in a serious predicament if something untoward happend.

END OF SUBJECT.

 

[seahawk2nigel]

Message for THEMAINMAN

See I told you so, be carefull, as this individual is very obnoxious, arrogant, obviously an office boy or a book worm, who can talk a good job but probably couldn't put a screw in a wall!

take care

seahawk2

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Why do you persist in these personal attacks when all I am doing is correcting factual errors?

Themainman said things that were wrong, and I pointed them out.

How does that make me an office boy, or someone who can't put a screw in a wall?

And what are we to make of a criticism that I'm a "bookworm" (I take it it was meant to be criticism, not praise?) when made after a discussion of the Wiring Regulations when you yourself had earlier gone on about how well you knew them?

Why is it OK for you to know what they say, but not anybody else?

If you find people who pull you up on mistakes that you make obnoxious and arrogant there is a very simple cure - stop making mistakes....