New Garage Electrics

[Themainman]

I was referring to Appendix 6 Paragraph 3 (Page 290). As in a court of law, legal beagles can argue over decimal points and crossing the t's etc. Especially when it comes to arguing over self certification and third party certification. BS7671 could also be argued in a court of law

As Part P was designed to regulate the industry (not enough many would argue), Regulatory body watchdogs are trying to agree a common accord on BS7671. As Regulation 29 of the EAWR states, it shall be the defence of the person to prove that they were diligent and took all reasonable steps to avoid commission of that offence.

I am proud of the industry and what has been achieved to date.
I have no wish to argue or discuss matters with individuals who are trying to bypass BS7671 because they believe they have the legal knowledge.

From reading back through responses, I can guess that seahawk and spark 123 are also practicing electricians and know the industry requirements.

Customer assurance and safety is paramount not how to overcome the system.

I agree - Let it drop, no more responses on this topic from me

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Respond - good god man (or I think you are) can't you see that I have!

No.

Let's not forget that this whole thing started when you came on here making a number of wild and incorrect statements. And despite all your later posts you have still not explained why you think that it is illegal for someone to install equipment and not self certify it, why you think you could have them arrested for it, why you think that your ability to test someone elses work changed in January of this year and whether you got all of this "information" from the ODPM.

I said previously that I am not going to get into an email war with you or any one else, so therefore i am about to make my final statment and bury the hatchet with this because I feel that irrespective what i say - there's always a criticism returned from an individual.

You'll attract criticism if you say things that are wrong, of course you will.

Tell me - what do you think should happen when people say things here that are wrong?

This individual is stating that as long as you follow Building Control or some other legislation (or I think that is what he's saying) then Joe-public can do any kind of electrical work - alledgidly legally -with no comebacks, irrespective of THE IEE WIRING REGULATIONS - BS7671.

There are two issues here, if I've understood you correctly.

Firstly, compliance with the Building Regulations. By the omission of any prohibition whatsoever, these do clearly allow "Joe Public" to do any kind of ELV or LV electrical installation work in dwellings on the consumer's side of the meter, legally, and with no comebacks, provided of course that he complies with the requirements of the Building Regulations in respect of the work he does.

You may well wish that this was not the case, but it plainly is, and you may not go around telling people that things are different just because you wish that they were.

Secondly, compliance with BS 7671. To say that people can do work "irrespective of the Wiring Regulations" is rather a sweeping statement. To ignore or contravene them in their entirety could well result in work that does not comply with P1 or P2. There are two factors to consider.

1) It is perfectly possible to deviate from BS 7671 and not create a situation that is unsafe.

2) The Building Regulations do not require adherence to BS 7671. Whilst doing that would be a good way to ensure compliance with some of them, it is not essential, and failure to comply with BS 7671 is neither an offence in its own right, nor does it, per se, put you in contravention of the Building Regulations.

You may well wish that this was not the case, but it plainly is, and you may not go around telling people that things are different just because you wish that they were.

What I am saying here is that if anyone is installing electrical circuits make sure that you are a compent person, or that you get a competent person to do the work for you

I agree - nobody should do electrical installation work if they aren't competent, and if you look at some of my other posts you'll frequently find me advising people that I don't think they are competent.

and ensure that he/she adheres to both the building regulations and most importantly the wiring regulations, otherwise one could find themselves in a serious predicament if something untoward happend.

Adhering to the Building Regulations is a legal necessity, and nobody should be advised to do otherwise. And apart from a few very limited exceptions, working to BS 7671 is also strongly advisable.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I was referring to Appendix 6 Paragraph 3 (Page 290).

Which says that the people signing have to be authorised by the companies executing the work of design, construction and I&T respectively, and that anybody authorised to certify more than one category should sign in more than one place. So no requirement for it all to be done by one person, no requirement for them all to work for the same company, and no indication that when signing for any one section that the scope of their certification is anything other than that section in complete isolation.

I have no wish to argue or discuss matters with individuals who are trying to bypass BS7671 because they believe they have the legal knowledge.

I don't think you'll find anybody advocating "bypassing" BS 7671 for its own sake.

Customer assurance and safety is paramount not how to overcome the system.

OOI, what then is your opinion of professional electricians who conspire with their customers to overcome the system of LABC notification?

 

[seahawk2nigel]

POINT OF ISSUE


Over the past few days or so, you may have noted quite a few heated discussions between myself and BANALLSHEDS.

I believe a healthy discussion is good, however, browsing through other forums I see that this gentleman has been making references to other persons views, and seemingly starting debates that are always negative to another persons comments.

I seriously believe that this person enjoys undermining people’s statements whether they are right or not.

The reason for me saying this is...

On browsing through other forums, I came across a statement posted by BANALLSHEDS, and I quote...

Another important point to note is that apart from a Building Inspector, nobody can certify someone else's work as being compliant with the Building Regulations. Unless arranged by or in cooperation with LABC, a 3rd party electrical inspection is of no value in terms of complying with the law.

This was posted on 3rd December 2005 Re: Correct or Not

...to my disbelief, my debates with this gentleman or one of them was that other people could not test someone else's work, but obviously he was saying otherwise.

The above quote from BANALLSHEDS proves that this gentleman simply enjoys contradicting people’s educated, comprehensive, politically correct answers.

I will say that this gentleman appears to have a certain knowledge regarding the electrical industry, but I only wish that he would use this knowledge positively, and not by the way of contradicting other people or even himself!

Such forums are primarily used for helping and educating people…

Respectfully
Seahawk2

 

[Themainman]

Well well seahawk,

Have you only just realised this?

Oops, now I'm contradicting my self and given another reply

 

[ban-all-sheds]

POINT OF ISSUE


Over the past few days or so, you may have noted quite a few heated discussions between myself and BANALLSHEDS.

I believe a healthy discussion is good, however, browsing through other forums I see that this gentleman has been making references to other persons views, and seemingly starting debates that are always negative to another persons comments.

No - not always negative, only when they are wrong.

I seriously believe that this person enjoys undermining people’s statements whether they are right or not.

I wouldn't call it undermining, but I do point out when other people are wrong. As you say, a healthy discussion is good, and surely it is unhealthy to leave incorrect statements unchallenged?

The reason for me saying this is...

On browsing through other forums, I came across a statement posted by BANALLSHEDS, and I quote...

Another important point to note is that apart from a Building Inspector, nobody can certify someone else's work as being compliant with the Building Regulations. Unless arranged by or in cooperation with LABC, a 3rd party electrical inspection is of no value in terms of complying with the law.

This was posted on 3rd December 2005 Re: Correct or Not

...to my disbelief, my debates with this gentleman or one of them was that other people could not test someone else's work, but obviously he was saying otherwise.

The earlier quote of mine says, quite clearly, "nobody can certify someone else's work as being compliant with the Building Regulations"

But your claim was not that you couldn't certify another man's work as compliant with the Building Regulations, you said

I, as a contactor cannot test another mans work

Testing somebody elses work is not certifying it as compliant with the Building Regulations, it is testing it for compliance (presumably) with BS 7671, and of course that is something you can do.

My very first response to that was "Of course you can. Have you never looked at the full version of the BS 7671 EIC?". Why didn't the fact that I mentioned BS 7671 EICs confirm to you that I, like you, was not at that point talking about certifying compliance with the Building Regulations?

Later you said

You cannot get someone else to test your work as to give an electrical installation certificate, that person must have undertaken the three stages…that is, the Design, Construction and Inspection and Testing. This is a FACT!

Not only is that not a fact, but again it shows that you were talking about Electrical Installation Certificates - not Building Regulations compliance.

The above quote from BANALLSHEDS proves that this gentleman simply enjoys contradicting people’s educated, comprehensive, politically correct answers.

No, the above quote, and the context in which you used it, and the comments that you made about it prove that you are still confused about the difference between Inspection & Testing & signing a BS 7671 EIC to say that you have inspected and tested an installation, and certifying compliance with the Building Regulations.

I will say that this gentleman appears to have a certain knowledge regarding the electrical industry,

Interesting.

Earlier on, when you were unable to engage in a rational discussion of facts, you resorted to statements like these:

DONT ASK BAN ALL SHEDS AS HE REALLY DOESNT KNOW WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION.

Unfortunately... BAN ALL SHEDS will have something to say, and undoupftfully attempt to contradict your statements with some lawfull regulation of which, so it seems, is all he knows (shame its not electrical though).

Why was this?

but I only wish that he would use this knowledge positively, and not by the way of contradicting other people or even himself!

I'm not contradicting myself. I am being totally consistent. If it appears contradictory to you it's because you are either not reading it properly, or you aren't saying what you mean, thus prompting inappropriate responses.

Such forums are primarily used for helping and educating people…

I'm trying, but some people are remarkably obtuse...

 

[benden]

B anal sheds ...So in other words take your sad lonely life and learn something about yourself for a change. You need to think about how best to motivate people with constructive criticism not right handed arrogance - OOOOOOH never mind - just go back to your **** mags and part P

 

[keyplayer]

I have to say that I've found ban-all-sheds copius advice and information both motivating and constructive.

 

[cozycats]

sorry to shoot some of you guys down BUT ban-all-sheds IS ALWAYS right!!!
Bloody annoying I know
He is certainly the most knowledgeable person on any forum I've found, and is always willing to answer, so ask nicely!

 

[Les9000]

In my opinion, people like Ban-all-Sheds are the life and soul of this forum. His knowledge and helpfulness are exactly what is needed. If he criticises people, it is with good cause. My vote goes to Ban.

 

[crystal ball]

sorry to shoot some of you guys down BUT ban-all-sheds IS ALWAYS right!!!
b****y annoying I know
He is certainly the most knowledgeable person on any forum I've found, and is always willing to answer, so ask nicely!

I second that motion!

 

[Adam_151]

Seems like you have a fan club ban

As a matter of fact could you sign this for me? *wafts folded up piece of blank A4 under Ban's nose*...

 

[pdcelec]

Seems like you have a fan club ban

As a matter of fact could you sign this for me? *wafts folded up piece of blank A4 under Ban's nose*...

I am not a fan of BAS, but would say that he answers most of the questions on here with correct answers, and will answer most queries in a professional manner. I respect the answers and it saves me answering them. If I think the answers he gives are wrong I will challenge him, but this is a rare occasion. Give someone respect who deserves it. After all if it wasnt for people like him, what would you do.

 

[keyplayer]

Can I have my old Razzle back now?

 

[EcoMan]

You know what I think the problem is? Both of you posted such long replies, with so many quotes and references to literature, that by the time you'd read the other's response, you'd forgotten exactly what they were responding to. I know I did! Or maybe that's because I don't know nuffin' 'bout nuffin'...