New Glow Worm Combi Low Flow Rate

[rideforever]

Fraud is a police matter. Give them a call and let us know how you get on.

I made a claim 2 years ago, and won got full money back that was against SSE. I think in this case it's pretty straightforward.
Like buying a car that does 150mph top speed, but when you take delivery it only does 130mph because the manufacturer has fitted a restrictor ... and then they say if you take it off you invalidate your warranty.
Well ... it's not just me using the 12.4l/min value. Glow worm themselves use it for all their other boilers. All distributors use it. And all installers use it.
But ... the boiler actually only does 10l/min.
That's fraud.

 

[denso13]

I think in this case it's pretty straightforward.

If you say so. What do Glow Worm say, they may have a good (justifiable) answer? Perhaps it has already been challenged in Court?

I'm not saying you're wrong but you've jumped to fraud in a very few posts.

 

[Gasguru]

Perhaps you can advise me. The installer has spoken to GlowWorm and they said the flow limiter cannot be removed or it invalidates the 10yr warranty.
I will have to speak to them myself.
I am starting to think it's time to claim the price of the boiler at the small claims court for fraud.
It's patently not a 12.4l/min boiler and that advertising that all installers are using is a fraud.
Just checked the manuals the other combis they have.

ULTIMATE : Restrictor
STORE : no
ENERGY : no
BETACOM : no

So it seems that the advertised value is reliable for Glow Worm products, but on the Ultimate they have for whatever reason created a situation where they advertise 12.4l/min but only deliver 10l/min.
That seems like de factor fraud.

And actually the 10year guarantee on this boiler ... seems to be a fiddle based on running your machine at a rate comparable to a cheap machine.

I don't know where you got your info but the Store boiler is a completely different type of boiler....you're comparing apples with pears.
As for the other models...they are all essentially the same boiler inside and all quote the same flow limiter for the same kW output. It's the same with the Vaillant versions too.
Boiler manufacturers have lost the plot and their marketing and accountants people like to market an almost identical boiler to every targeted market...they call the boilers by different names,
have slightly different specs and warranty conditions but underneath it's the same.

The manufacturer limits the flowrate resulting in a higher temperature rise (delta T)...you then need to blend in more cold to get to your required temperature. You'll get the same flowrate into the bath/shower/basin by adding cold. As I mentioned I suspect the low flowrate limiters are fitted to comply with EU legislation and type approval....other manufacturers are also fitting low flow limiters despite the boiler being able to supply higher flowrates at a desired lower temperature output especially in the summer season with higher cold inlet temperatures. Of course the delta 35 degree figure has become an industry benchmark for comparing models...but it would seem the rules have changed and it's now just a paper specification. A 30kW boiler from any manufacturer will all have the same performance but if one decides to severely limit the flowrate it just appears to perform worse than the others (but of course the temperature output is higher).

It sounds like your installer isn't the brightest if he needs to phone Glowworm rather than pulling out a simple o ring. He supplied it so your legal contract is with him.

 

[rideforever]

flow limiter for the same kW output

I checked the manuals for the energy/store/betacom/ultimate ... only the ultimate mentions the flow limiter, therefore the others I assume produce what they say. It's only this one and I've been done.

You might be right about the EU BS, fact is I didn't get what I paid for or what was advertised that's a problem.

 

[Gasguru]

Look harder...in my manual for the Ultimate 3 it's on page 47 of edition 10/10/2016 under "tech details domestic hot water"

 

[denso13]

fact is I didn't get what I paid for

As Gasguru said, if you add cold water you'll get 12.5l/m at a 35° temp rise. Just what you paid for.

 

[rideforever]

Of course the delta 35 degree figure has become an industry benchmark for comparing models...but it would seem the rules have changed and it's now just a paper specification. A 30kW boiler from any manufacturer will all have the same performance but if one decides to severely limit the flowrate it just appears to perform worse than the others (but of course the temperature output is higher).

Tell me if I am wrong about this ... but I have a shower with the temp handle roughly in the middle of the dial. So this means that I am not at max water temp, therefore there is excess capacity that is unusable due to the flow restrictor ? And removing it would increase the shower pressure? Is that right ?

It would be different if I was on max shower temp and it's running 10l/min.

 

[rideforever]

I don't suppose anyone could find the part for the 35c Ultimate which is a 12l/min limiter ? I would be grateful. Meaning the disk.

 

[Gasguru]

With many shower valves (and certainly thermostaticly operated) the hot water must be somewhat higher than the showering temp, the boiler DHW temp should be set to say 50 degrees or more.
I've seen shower specs that require 55 degree inlet temps to guarantee shower valve operation.

The parts diagrams show the same part no. for both the 30 and 35kW versions, they come in a 10 pack and all look the same
05430300

As I said it's normal for us that repair boilers to pull the O ring out (and sometimes the whole flow limiter insert).

 

[rideforever]

The Energy boiler is 30kw and 14.2l/min.
The Betacom boiler is 30kw and 12.4l/min.
And far as I know there are no restrictors on them - at least not mentioned in the manuals.

 

[rideforever]

The parts diagrams show the same part no. for both the 30 and 35kW versions, they come in a 10 pack and all look the same
05430300

Thanks > what does that mean?
Does it mean that the boiler is actually not capable of what it claims to be?

What do you think my best bet is? Removing the o-ring or calling GWorm or Small claims or going to the vendor (City Plumbing).
I didn't directly discuss the flow rate with the installer as it was a machine recommended by a different installer and I assumed it was Ultimate.

 

[Gasguru]

The manual spec shows a different flow limiter being fitted to the 35kW version but this is Glowworm we're dealing with....manuals full of mistakes, just a brand name of Vaillant Group...who knows who or where it was designed.

Did you buy it direct from City or the installer? The contract is with whoever you paid.
If it's the installer then he shoves on a markup to cover agro like this and warranty claims etc.
As I've said a dozen times pull the O ring and see how it goes. I guarantee in 10 years the o ring will have been removed...it will have baked hard and perished.
Years ago Vokera launched a boiler with the flow limiter directly next to the heat exchanger....on every single boiler the flow limiters were pulled as the O ring cooked.

 

[rideforever]

City

The installer bought it from City Plumbing, he'll give me the invoice today.
Thanks for all your help btw

I would like to get the limiter pulled out - is it easy to locate in the plans, I couldn't see it, there are loads of o-rings all over the diagrams ??

 

[Gasguru]

Then your contract is with him...he should talk to his Glowworm rep.

 

[rideforever]

Then your contract is with him...he should talk to his Glowworm rep.

Yep, well life is the art of the possible isn't it, perfection not required !!