No confidence vote against TM as party leader

[Notch7]

Correct! Zero does not equal numerous

Thats right. Zero have been presented.

You said there have been numerous exampkes of the UK being less democratic then the EU.
Nobody has provided any direct comparisons.

Hence =zero.

Give me a comparison of how the archbishop being non elected in this country compares.......

How many bishops are elected members of the EU?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Do yer own research

the credibility of your argument went down the collective toilet 2 years ago

And there we have it, Ladies and Gentlemen - yet one more Quitling who thinks that he can simply make up stuff about the EU which he doesn't like and who thinks he can then refuse to even pretend that his complaints have any basis in facts whatsoever, and yet still have his ludicrous assertions considered valid.

You see, transam G-Wiz, the thing about reality is that no matter how much you deny it and pretend it does not exist, no matter how loose your grip on it becomes, it just carries on without you.

 

[Doppleganger]

Thats right. Zero have been presented.

You said there have been numerous exampkes of the UK being less democratic then the EU.
Nobody has provided any direct comparisons.

Hence =zero.

Give me a comparison of how the archbishop being non elected in this country compares.......

How many bishops are elected members of the EU?

"How many unelected Bishops (as an example of unelected persons) are there in a UK government?" would be a better question.

In fact, an even better question would be "how many unelected persons are there in a UK government?"
The answer being "about 800 in the House of Lords alone".
Then don't forget the judicial arm of the UK government.
Then don't forget the civil service function in UK government.
Then don't forget the Royalty.

I suspect the true answer to the question "how many unelected persons are there in the UK government?" might be a number beyond your comprehension, based on your ability to count numerous and arrive at zero.
One excellent example was presented in one of the links I provided. Clearly you haven't read it, or refused to recognise the direct comparison:
"The most powerful EU figure by far, is the President of the EU Commission (the EU’s Civil Service), who is nominated by the European Council."
Malcolm Turner

Another of Malcolm's example:
"a prime minister who was only elected by Tories in Maidenhead, a town which also voted to remain in the EU?”
How undemocratic is that!

Another of Malcolm's comments:
"Britain is 14th out of only 19 considered to be full democracies."

http://www.eiu.com/Handlers/Whitepa...017.pdf&mode=wp&campaignid=DemocracyIndex2017

You may notice that apart from 3 other non-EU countries, the top 15 is dominated by EU/EFTA countries.
In fact of the 19 full democracies, only 5 are not EU/EFTA countries.
Therefore, it is safe to say that EU alignment or close association encourages full democracy.

But if you wish to persist in your ridiculous stance that having unelected people in government reduces the democratic legitimacy of that government, then in your opinion there are no democratic governments. Your apparent argument that unless the government is "government by referendum" then democracy is not possible to achieve, is nonsense.
Perhaps you need to remind yourself what constitutes a full democracy:
"What else does a well-functioning democracy need? A free and independent media, independent courts, limits to officials' discretion and regular electoral processes are all essential to a robust democracy." https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/government-by-referendums-is-not-democracy/article30798029/
Do you see anything in there that suggests a full democracy should not have unelected people?

 

[Doppleganger]

Pedantry.

Interesting that you point out the Maastrict treaty. The point at which an economic trading union became a political union and the major reason for Euroscepticism.

And 15 years before that point, transam claims the EU was learning to be democratic. Thereby refuting your suggestion that the EU is undemocratic.

Hugh Gaitskell was an ardent eurosceptic. He was leader of the Labour party late 50's, early 60's.
" Gaitskell ... and opposed Harold Macmillan's attempt to lead the UK into the European Common Market." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Gaitskell

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You said there have been numerous exampkes of the UK being less democratic then the EU.

You are missing the point.

Again.

People are using a charge of the EU being undemocratic as a reason for why we should not be a member. As soon as anybody makes that charge they absolutely must be able to justify it. They absolutely must be able to show that they understand the workings of the institution which they are criticising.

If they are unable to do that then ipso facto their complaints have no basis in reality but are simply febrile fantasies.

Whether you are missing the point deliberately or because of a genuine lack of ability to understand, I don't know.

Nobody has provided any direct comparisons.

They have been asked though, haven't they, but, imagine my surprise, they've been unable to answer.

The EU lot who's unelected. who do you think I meant

It's not clear to which parts of the EU you object because they weren't elected.
Will you please list them, and alongside each show the closest equivalent UK part and whether it is elected here.
You must surely be able to do that.

The EU lot who's unelected. who do you think I meant

It's not clear who you meant, given that not all of the "EU lot" is unelected.
Will you please list which parts of the EU you object to because they weren't elected, and alongside each show the closest equivalent UK part and whether it is elected here.
You must surely be able to do that.

But maybe we do have a glimmer of light here, starting to illuminate the truth:

Give me a comparison of how the archbishop being non elected in this country compares.......

How many bishops are elected members of the EU?

Not sure why you've gone from non elected here to elected there - were you trying to make a point, or was it just a random mistake?

However, your example will do splendidly as one showing a way in which the UK is less democratic than the EU. I don't know how many, if any, bishops have been elected to positions in the EU, but I do know that not one has been undemocratically appointed to any.

There is only one democratic sovereign nation in the entire world which simply hands seats in its legislature to religious leaders. Do you know which one that is?

And apart from that one, if the search is extended beyond democratic countries you only find one other in the entire world - Iran.


Can we look forward to you trying to claim that us simply handing seats in our legislature to religious leaders is not an example of us being less democratic than somewhere where all of the members of the legislature are elected by the people?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I'm being neither.

 

[transam]

And there we have it, Ladies and Gentlemen - yet one more Quitling who thinks that he can simply make up stuff about the EU which he doesn't like and who thinks he can then refuse to even pretend that his complaints have any basis in facts whatsoever, and yet still have his ludicrous assertions considered valid.

You see, transam G-Wiz, the thing about reality is that no matter how much you deny it and pretend it does not exist, no matter how loose your grip on it becomes, it just carries on without you.

And there u have ladies and gentleman another remoaner pontificating about democracy

But comes to some strange conclusion that the Brexit vote was not democratic

Yep you could not make it up

Oh hang on ban all sheds does

Democracy u wouldn't know if it bit u on the arris

 

[JohnD]

Allowing the people to express their will means that the will of the people could overrule the will of the people. This would not be respecting the will of the people. Therefore the people must not be allowed to express their will. This is the will of the people. Maybe. If they aren't allowed to express it we'll never know. This is the will of the Prime Minister, which overrules the people.

Clear?

 

[transam]

Allowing the people to express their will means that the will of the people could overrule the will of the people. This would not be respecting the will of the people. Therefore the people must not be allowed to express their will. This is the will of the people. Maybe. If they aren't allowed to express it we'll never know. This is the will of the Prime Minister, which overrules the people.

Clear?

View attachment 154744

Nonsense

Another remoaner who cannot quite understand the meaning of democracy

But like all remoaners they think they occupy the moral
High ground

There understanding of democracy
Is on the same level as Vladimir putin the democratically elected leader of Russia

 

[JohnD]

Another remoaner who cannot quite understand the meaning of democracy

Perhaps you would try to explain what you think it means.

Do you think it means that Civil Servants should be elected? Brextremists often have trouble with that.

Do you think it means that the "Second Chamber" (whether you call it a Senate or a Council or a House of Lords) should be fully elected?

Do you think it means the Head of Government should be elected?

Do you think it means the Head of State should be elected?

Do you think it means there should only ever be one vote on any topic, such as "Is Homosexuality a Crime?" "Is this country at War with Germany?" "Is hanging or Transportation for Life the correct punishment for stealing a Handkerchief?" "Should Soldiers with PTSD or mental illness be court-martialled and shot?"

Frankly, I don't think you will be able to coherently explain your opinion on those questions.

 

[durhamplumber]

Perhaps you would try to explain what you think it means.

Do you think it means that Civil Servants should be elected? Brextremists often have trouble with that.

Do you think it means that the "Second Chamber" (whether you call it a Senate or a Council or a House of Lords) should be fully elected?

Do you think it means the Head of Government should be elected?

Do you think it means the Head of State should be elected?

Do you think it means there should only ever be one vote on any topic, such as "Is Homosexuality a Crime?" "Is this country at War with Germany?" "Is hanging or Transportation for Life the correct punishment for stealing a Handkerchief?" "Should Soldiers with PTSD or mental illness be court-martialled and shot?"

Frankly, I don't think you will be able to coherently explain your opinion on those questions.

It definetly means lets not vote every two years.

 

[vinty]

If the EU is so democratic why are they putting up so many roadblocks to subvert the democratically expressed wish of the UK to leave the EU.
Brexit would be a straightforward matter if the EU was really a democratic institution.
Instead of using the manufactured problem of the Irish backstop to demoralise leave voters they could agree to some sort of tarrif free agreement for both sides.
The truth is the EU don't want the UK to leave the EU and they will use every dirty trick in the book to prevent it, including colluding with remainers to Brainwash the public with anti brexit propaganda.

 

[JohnD]

Frankly, I don't think you will be able to coherently explain your opinion on those questions.

No surprise that he couldn't.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

But comes to some strange conclusion that the Brexit vote was not democratic

Show us where I've said that outside of your febrile imagination.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Another remoaner who cannot quite understand the meaning of democracy

Another Quitling who is so against the idea of another referendum that he pretends that asking the public what they want is undemocratic.

In a stunning display of Dunning-Krugerness he thinks that other people will believe his pretence.