Nuisance tripping - Earth Leakage Device on a TT system

[ban-all-sheds]

As newly qualified, my knowledge is obviously near the start of the learning curve, hence this forum.

But you should know the regulations for concealed cables - there is absolutely no excuse not to, and no justification for not knowing which has any credibility whatsoever.

Your experience can be at the start of the learning curve, but not your knowledge. No way.

Unfortunately other replies seem to think that once qualified one will know everything there is to know,

Not everything.

But knowing the regulations for concealed cables is so very very very basic that there aren't enough "very"s in the universe to accurately describe how basic it is.

You are not a qualified electrician, not remotely, and the sooner you disabuse yourself of the notion that you are the better it will be for you and your clients.

 

[JohnW2]

As newly qualified, my knowledge is obviously near the start of the learning curve, hence this forum. I would like to work alonside more experienced sparks but unfortunately noone is taking youngsters on around here at the moment.

You have my sympathies and I think you have the right attitude, even if your knowledge and certainly experience are currently pretty limited. As I said, I do share some of the concerns that have been voiced, particularly regarding your apparent limited knowledge of BS7671 (i.e. 'the regs'). I think you might find it very helpful to read one of the many 'guides to the regulations' which are around, which will remind you of many of the things that you were probably once taught. There's no need to be able to spew out all the section numbers of regs, or recite them word-for-word like a parrot, or to necesessarily remember all details of the regs. Provided you acquire a good knowledge of 'what is there', and the general principles of what the regs say, you can always look up the details whenever you need to - and as you become more experienced, and do more looking up, you'll find that most of it will eventually 'stick', so you'll be having to refer to the regs progressively less.

Unfortunately other replies seem to think that once qualified one will know everything there is to know, certainly some replies have been no help whatsoever, unlike yours, and seem intent on picking holes in everything I write.

As you went on to say, some people seem to have nothing better to do. Most of them are probably well-intentioned, fearing that you may not be 'safe', but they don't seem to understand that non-constructive comments from them won't change or help that. The more sensible people here will realise that you have to keep a roof over your head and therefore are going to work as an electrician whether you get help and advice or not - so far better that they try to help you in your learning process.

I think this forum has now run its useful life so am signing off; thanks to all who provided useful, positive inputs.

I think it would be a pity if you abandonned the forum, since I'm sure that it could be a valuable resource for you. As I said above, I'm sure that there are some people here (not only me, and don't forget that I am not even a qualified or practising electrician) who would be happy to help you. You can simply ignore the non-constructive posts and, if you do, they might even eventually dry up (although I'm not going to hold my breath while waiting!)!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

As you went on to say, some people seem to have nothing better to do. Most of them are probably well-intentioned, fearing that you may not be 'safe', but they don't seem to understand that non-constructive comments from them won't change or help that. The more sensible people here will realise that you have to keep a roof over your head and therefore are going to work as an electrician whether you get help and advice or not - so far better that they try to help you in your learning process.

Not that it would happen in reality, but I find it useful to look at it like this.

Imagine somebody whose competence you had good reason to doubt came here for advice, after which he went away and did something which resulted in death or injury, and that you had been called to give evidence in a court case or inquest.

Question from barrister: "When <somebody> visited the site did you believe him to be competent to carry out the work which he planned to do?"

Answer from you: "No."

QFB: "What advice did you give him?"

At this point, which answer would you feel most comfortable with?

a) "I encouraged him to carry on, asking questions as he needed, and acquiring greater competence on the way."

or

b) "I told him that he was not competent enough to be doing this work, and that he should give up trying to do it until he was."

?

 

[riveralt]

I think this forum has now run its useful life so am signing off; thanks to all who provided useful, positive inputs.

I think it would be a pity if you abandonned the forum, since I'm sure that it could be a valuable resource for you. As I said above, I'm sure that there are some people here (not only me, and don't forget that I am not even a qualified or practising electrician) who would be happy to help you. You can simply ignore the non-constructive posts and, if you do, they might even eventually dry up (although I'm not going to hold my breath while waiting!)!
Kind Regards, John

John, there is a big difference about helping someone to do DIY work on their own property which therefore becomes there own responsibility and helping a 'qualified electrician' to do work on property belonging to someone else.

I am a 'qualified but still learning electrician' have been for a number of years - now working part time. I tend to focus on domestic and small scale commercial installations.
Yes I might consult this and other forums if there is something I am uncertain about - but I also know when to say to the client I cannot do this work. Perhaps I am fortunate in that I know a number of electricians who I can pass work onto and watch how they do it for next time.

The general lack of basic knowledge shown by mikgle is startling.
I have asked him three times to state what makes him qualified, certificates, time served etc, but he has chosen not to reply and this makes me seriously doubt whether he is qualified at all.
I doubt he has any insurance for electrical work and most certainly not for the PIR he is proposing to do - insurance companies are now asking for proof of qualification as a condition for insuring for such work.

I am more than willing to spend my time on this website trying to help people resolve electrical problems, since it helps me stay sharp and continue to learn for resolving problems in real situations in a customers home.
But there comes a point where even I believe that to assist mikgle any further is putting both him and more importanly his unsuspecting client in serious danger.

 

[JohnW2]

I am more than willing to spend my time on this website trying to help people resolve electrical problems, since it helps me stay sharp and continue to learn for resolving problems in real situations in a customers home.
But there comes a point where even I believe that to assist mikgle any further is putting both him and more importanly his unsuspecting client in serious danger.

I can't really argue much with that. However, as I recently wrote, the reality is that he is not going to stop trying to practise as an electrician because of anything said to him here - so the lesser of the evils is probably to try to help him to be more safe/less dangerous.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[JohnW2]

Imagine somebody whose competence you had good reason to doubt came here for advice, after which he went away and did something which resulted in death or injury, and that you had been called to give evidence in a court case or inquest.
Question from barrister: "When <somebody> visited the site did you believe him to be competent to carry out the work which he planned to do?"
Answer from you: "No."
QFB: "What advice did you give him?"
At this point, which answer would you feel most comfortable with?
a) "I encouraged him to carry on, asking questions as he needed, and acquiring greater competence on the way."
or
b) "I told him that he was not competent enough to be doing this work, and that he should give up trying to do it until he was."
?

One might initially feel more comfortable about giving answer (b), but consider the situation in which one had given answer (b), and then faced cross-examination from Barrister 2 (appearing for the defendant):
QFB2: "did you believe that your advice would result in him not doing the work in question, or did you think it more likely that he would have continued to do it despite the advice you had given?"
Answer from me: "The latter"
QFB2: "did you believe that you could have given advice that may possibly have reduced the risk of the <injury or death> occurring?"
Answer from me: "Yes"
QFB2: "Did you offer any such advice?"
Answer from me: "No".

Am I still quite so comfortable? Neither of our fictitious scenarious are very realistic, but I certainly don't think it's straightforward.

Mind you, this does remind us all of one thing which we always have to remember. I have no formal training or qualifications relating directly to work as an electrician. You don't know me from Adam, but I suspect that, on the basis of what little you've discovered about me over the past few months (and despite the various disagreements we've had!), you might (legalities etc; aside) possibly feel a bit more comfortable letting me loose on the electrical installation in your house than you would the 'qualified electrician' we are discussing - or maybe I'm wrong Qualifications, and even 'experience' (in the sense of having been doing, or trying to do, something for a long time) are definitely not everything!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

One might initially feel more comfortable about giving answer (b), but consider the situation in which one had given answer (b), and then faced cross-examination from Barrister 2 (appearing for the defendant):
QFB2: "did you believe that your advice would result in him not doing the work in question, or did you think it more likely that he would have continued to do it despite the advice you had given?"
Answer from me: "The latter"

Answer from me: "There was no way I could form an opinion one way or the other. All I could do was to give the best advice I was able, which was to not do the work".

 

[JohnW2]

Answer from me: "There was no way I could form an opinion one way or the other. All I could do was to give the best advice I was able, which was to not do the work".

Fair enough. However, I'm sure you understand the dilemma I'm talking about. Forget about courts and barristers and just think about conscience and sleeping at night. If one thinks it very likely that the person will do the work, regardless of what one says, and fails to say something that might possibly have reduced the chances of the injury/death/whatever occurring, that might well play on one's mind. It's more-or-less a no-win situation.

What we should be criticising, of course, is a system which allows people to be 'qualified' but not necessarily in any way competent.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It's not a no-win situation and it never plays on my mind.

I will not give less than optimal advice, or encouragement, if the best advice is to leave it alone.

If people ignore my advice that is entirely their responsibility.

 

[JohnW2]

It's not a no-win situation and it never plays on my mind.
I will not give less than optimal advice, or encouragement, if the best advice is to leave it alone.

Fair enough; that is obviously for you to decide. However, I think you continue to illustrate the dilemma. It could easily be argued that the 'optimal advice' is that most likely to prevent bad outcomes, given a reasonable assessment of the realities of the situation. I really don't think that any of us actually believe that the op in this thread will decide not to do the work as a result of what has been said to him here. If that is the highly probable reality, then it could be argued that 'optimum advice' (if he's not prepared to accept advice not to do it) would be that which helped him as much as possible to do the work safely.

I realise that not many people seem to share my view, but that's how I see it.

Another interesting point is that, despite what you imply, I cannot find any point in this thread that you have actually explicitly advised the op not to do the work. You have posted all sorts of comments/criticisms/rhetorical critical questions, but I'm struggling to find where you actually explicitly gave him what you feel is the 'optimal advice' (not to do the work).

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You are not a qualified electrician, not remotely, and the sooner you disabuse yourself of the notion that you are the better it will be for you and your clients.

 

[JohnW2]

You are not a qualified electrician, not remotely, and the sooner you disabuse yourself of the notion that you are the better it will be for you and your clients.

You've made a number of statements along those lines, about the op's capabilities/competence but, as I said, apparently no explicit expression to him of your 'optimal advice' that he should not do the work. However, who cares, since we know what you think, and I guess the op (who has been frightened off) knows as well.

Kind Regards, John