Our plumber is depressed and suicidal!

[amelia]

We had a new Ideal condensing boiler fitted last September. Previous CH was semi gravity, open vented system, oil boiler. Our plumber is very competent and conscientious. He is now tearing his hair out.
We started to get air in the rads. Three in particular (two of which have been moved in the past) We had to keep bleeding them and topping up. He suspected a leak but then discovered the expansion tank didn't have correct pressure. Thought we'd cured the problem. Had a period of 3-4 weeks peace and quiet. Alas. we then started to get banging in the boiler. Ideal came out and said the differential reading was 33 instead of 11% - must have a blockage. System was Powerflushed yet again. Banging stopped but we are now back to the 'air' in rads problem. He has since fitted a new expansion tank. We still get squirting, running water type noises when the CH or water first switches on. When it's actually running it's fairly quiet. The noise in the hot water cylinder is worsening now and if you try to bleed the rads there's hardly any air but fizzing water. What on earth is going on. Our plumber is extremely depressed.

 

[namsag]

Try putting some fernox system restorer into system as after new installs etc this helps systems with the problems you have settle back down to normal. Fizzing water could be too much inhibitor used or a reaction from some of the chemicals used in power flush being left in and still reacting

 

[AlanE]

After the powerflush did your plumber take a water sample from the system to check non of the chemicals were still present? How long did the flushing procedure take?

'Our plumber is very competent and conscientious. He is now tearing his hair out. ' answer above to suggest how much so. BUT lets have your address or that of the plumber love pain and tearing out hair is normally PAINFUL --- O U C H!

Alan

 

[amelia]

Thanks you guys!

I think our plumber's next plan of action was to try a Sentinel neutralising solution, so your comments are most reassuring. By the way, he is now bald

The Powerflush took all morning, both times. The second flush, after several months was with the strongest Sentinel product that he could use with our new boiler. No, he didn't check the water. He has since tried to have the water analysed but Sentinel have said they don't do it anymore(?). I understand that Fernox do.

To the person who left a message just after midnight - please leave again. It seems to have disappeared. I think this topic was listed twice and one listing has been deleted. If anyone knows how I can restore it please let me know. Thanks.

 

[croydoncorgi]

Possibly obvious comment....

If you're continually 'bleeding rads AND topping up the pressure' AND the system is a sealed one, you MUST be losing water somewhere OR as has been suggested there's a chemical reaction going on which creates gas (probably hydrogen). First check that the discharge pipe from the expansion vessel is not dripping and that the pressure is stable (1 to 2 bar).

To check fo: hydrogen: with the system COLD and nothing running, open the bleed screw VERY SLIGHTLY on a rad that needs venting (was cold at the top) and try to light the gas coming out of the rad. BE CAREFUL YOU DON'T LIGHT THE CURTAINS!!! If there is hydrogen present, it will 'pop' and / or light with a 'miniature blow torch' effect. DO NOT OPEN THE BLEED SCREW FULLY - the flame could flash-back into the rad and go 'bang' rather than 'pop'!!

If there is hydrogen present, probably flushing chemicals are still present and reacting OR there's a serious 'electrolysis problem' in the system. The latter needs someone who knows what they're doing - leaving it will result in pinholed pipes and rads.

 

[amelia]

Thanks Croydoncorgi!

Our plumber has tested for Hydrogen on two or three occasions - but nothing. Three days ago he put 'noise reduction' gunk and a neutralising solution into the system and left it quiet as a mouse. It is now back to it's usual tricks. Rads sound half empty when you switch the heating on (squirting water noises) and water cylinder also making a din when first switching on. We do not feel we have a leak because there was the period of 3-4 weeks when all was quiet and well (before the boiler started banging). My gut feeling is that it's a problem with my water! I managed to get a bit of air out of 3 of the rads this morning again.

How do I get this tested. Where do I find my expert?? What do I do next? I'm dreading phoning my plumber! He wants to fit a new water cylinder next!!!!! HELP!

 

[AlanE]

A new hot water cylinder? Interesting - but what is his logic or is it a panic idea? Certainly cannot see how it will solve your problem.

You ask for suggestions. I gave one above CHECK THE WATER in the system. Has this been done?? This will give you the definitive answer if there is a problem with it and also what action to take.

How many radiators do you have? It would take a morning to powerflush properly two or three but is you have a system with more like six or eight then you are looking at more like a day.

I find it incredable that your plumber (incidently is he CORGI registered to be installing gas appliances) is at a loss. If this is the case perhaps you would be better employing a proper heating engineer.

If I had visited your property I would for starters, check the system to see system had been installed correctly, checked the Benchmark log book (I presume you do have one fully filled in) to ensure the comissioning of the system was correctly carried out, checked flow and return tempretures - together with taking other tempreture readings - and then, if considered necessary carried out a water analisis (which I myself do) to see what was going on inside the system.

I wonder how many of these checks your plumber carried out? But then I consider myself a heating engineer and have yet to find a system I have been unable, provided it has been installed correctly, to get running properly.

Your plumber is tearing his hair out, presumably he has none left by now, but if the truth is known he is just guessing. Eventually he MIGHT even stumbel accross the solution.

In one of your posts you say Ideal suggested a problem in the form of a blockage this could still be the case if the powerflushing was not carried out properly.

Alan

 

[ChrisR]

Just been told Sentinel no longer do water checks, and Fernox now charge £100 !!

 

[amelia]

In all fairness I must say that our 'plumber' is a Corgi registered heating engineer. Sorry if I implied otherwise. The chap that came from Ideal said he had done a good installation job and it made a change to find Benchmark book filled in properly etc, however, I do feel he's a bit lost now.

He thinks the hot water cylinder is drawing in air, although, as I said before, if this is the cause of our problems why hasn't it been the same all the way through. We had a period of peace and quiet before the banging boiler started.

When he flushed the rads through the second time he also flushed them through individually, particularly one in the bedroom that was a bit sluggish.

I have found a company called Purimachos in Bristol who will analyse water sample for £25. Fernox charge £99. Do you get what you pay for? Will the cheap analysis give us the answer? Would a kit be better? If so how much, where from etc? We cannot afford to throw money at this continually. Appreciate all help.

 

[namsag]

There is a reasonable possibility that the coil within your cylinder had a weak spot that has shown up after powerflushing (sentinel say 9 rad system takes 4 to 5 hours) and become a hole pulling fresh water in. Trouble is with the problem you have is it is one of those that has to be seen and heard to have a proper clue on what is wrong. In your heating engineers defense i will say over the years it`s amazing how many times i have saw perfectly fitted systems defy the laws of physics no matter what has been tried to get them working only for them to settle down weeks later an d start working.. AlanE being a recent entry into the heating industry you will come across these situations in the future that will leave you scratching your head i just hope someone who doesn`t know you doesn`t cast doubt on your ability or qualifications like you have with this engineer.

 

[AlanE]

'AlanE being a recent entry into the heating industry' this comment is based upon what facts??

It was never MY intention to cast doubts upon this or any other engineer. I would always consider a site visit essencial in the diagnosis of faults, and any comments I or anybody else make can only be based on what is posted here, but when it is written that the expansion tank had wrong pressure (and eventually replaced - why?) checking expansion vessel pre-charge pressure is part of the comissioning procedure so how come this is only discovered later?

'sentinel say 9 rad system takes 4 to 5 hours' this may well be a realistic time to carry out the procedure properly but add to this the time for setting up and clearing up and you get near to the time I said virtually a days work. Certainly not a morning.

Also posted is the comment that the second powerflush was carried out on each radiator seperatly even on 'a sluggish one' done properly the first time this comment would not have been made.

'i just hope someone who doesn`t know you doesn`t cast doubt on your ability or qualifications like you have with this engineer'. Had I taken the same course of action with the posted results this would be a fully qualified comment! Might not like it but true.

Alan

 

[namsag]

AlanE .Based on the facts that you yourself have put on other web sites. So how long have you been qualified to work on heating?( ACAS heating ticket). As for power flushing i have seen many systems done by the book that don`t shift everything first time (or as good as taking rads of wall and hosing out) . As this engineer already had his tools etc on job and would be clearing these away at end of the job the all day inclusive time doesn`t come into it. As for the expansion vessel which has now been changed it probably did have correct pressure at first but has failed resulting in it being changed. And as you say you can`t say for definite without a site visit, thus you should not criticise without full facts.

 

[djbunny]

Amelia you say he fitted a expansion tank, or was it the vessel? is the ch system presurised or open vent as the other people seem content with arguing with each other.

 

[oilman]

Amelia you say he fitted a expansion tank, or was it the vessel? is the ch system presurised or open vent......

It is unwise to make assumptions of course, but Amelia's original post DID mention the " Previous CH was semi gravity, open vented system,", so it's reasonable to assume in this case the system is now sealed. Particularly since ...discovered the expansion tank didn't have correct pressure." . So it seems obvious to me the term you are seeking is "expansion vessel", since the only way of making an open vented system "expansion tank" the wrong pressure is to raise or lower it.

.........as the other people seem content with arguing with each other.

AlanE and namsag are quite cabable of putting their own points, how does this remark help?

 

[djbunny]

As oilman said "we should not make assumptions" so i need to know is it sealed or open vented, as it does not really suggest otherwise, which ideal condensing boiler is it? is it a system boiler? come back and im sure i will have some suggestions