Oversized rads a good idea?

[DeltaT2]

Ok understood - thanks for the help.

Could you point me in the right direction for a ducted system upstairs?

I think a twin split would be enough downstairs?

With the gable end of our semi the install will be straight forward...could you give me a ball park figure for a typical installation?

Thanks again.

I think you'll regret fitting any kind of ASHP, the performance is just too poor at low temperatures. It's now well documented on-line how poor they performed over the last two Winters.
Fit something like Norcon detailed for Hot Water & C/Heating.

 

[wiffola]

Yeah I'm really beginning to agree.

I'm looking into Baxi options today.

Norcon, can you explain (to a novice) how this system works with out a large thermal store?

Also, could you run me through how you use this on a day to day basis?

eg. fuel? Daily fills winter/summer? Where does the flue exit here?

I'm guessing putting this in a wooden shed aint a good plan?

Any info is greatly appreciated.

 

[Corgigrouch]

All the main manufacturers make their own ducted unit but duct and terminals are supplied seperately.. I never give even ball park figures on the net but suffice to say for good quality equipmet and for a professional install the price would be in the same region as a Biomass boiler... A decent biomass boiler would be my first choice in your situation, you already have radiators, the water will get as hot as you like so you don't need to consider upsizing them and if you have a ready source of stuff to burn then the lowtech route is a bit of a no brainer... And the future.

I like both forms of heating but each has it's own pros and cons... I'm very new to Biomass but if I was designing an install, then I would like to fit a buffer vessel to store heat for hot water in the Summer... But that is just me and my view...

Having spoken to one air to water equipment supplier regarding training to service and repair their units once they are out to warranty, their reply was.. "If it is more than a pump or a fan, then you don't repair them, you replace them".... Cheap air to air units are the same, light commercial units can be expensive to repair

Lots for you to consider, I'm sorry if it seems like I'm sitting on the fence a bit

 

[DeltaT2]

Having spoken to one air to water equipment supplier regarding training to service and repair their units once they are out to warranty, their reply was.. "If it is more than a pump or a fan, then you don't repair them, you replace them".... Cheap air to air units are the same, light commercial units can be expensive to repair


That's why any boiler engineer should do their F-Gas, you can't tell me repairing these ASHP is going to be more difficult than a fridge or indeed a boiler!! Just look at the basic concept, repairing them will be money for old rope.

The only problem is; due to the running costs in mid-Winter, no one will fit them & also the Greenwash grants have also stopped for them.

 

[Corgigrouch]

I'd say that there are one or two refrigeration engineers who would disagree with you...

They're not as straight forward as a fridge and the parts aren't as cheap a boiler.... There is also a lot of time recovering refrigerant, evacuating, lots of delicate components to avoid when brazing... and then you have to be absolutely sure that the part that you are fitting are the parts that it needs... then what do you do when the new part fries straight away... What then? They can be fixed but if you get it wrong, then it's easy to make a loss on the job...Especially on CO2 units.

F gas means that you are competent to work with refrigerants and refrigeration systems, it doesn't mean that you know how to repair them any more that being Gas safe registered means that you will know how to fix a boiler

 

[wiffola]

Yeah going to really head down the biomass option now.

Baxi innova looks good - I'm just not keen on the huge accumulation tanks!

They recommend 800 + 600 litres. I just don't know where we would put them.

Can the boiler and tank go in a wooden shed outdoors?

We have a good quality 5x7 shed and could put another one in next to it?

I'll get some photos up of the possible locations around our house.

 

[Corgigrouch]

As long as the boiler manufacturers minimum clearances to flamable surfaces and the flue clearances meet, then I see no reason why it cannot go in a wooden shed but I would be inclined to line the walls with plasterboard and fit a fire resistant floor.... Truth is I don't know what the specs are yet but I shall be interested in finding the definitive answer

 

[DeltaT2]

F gas means that you are competent to work with refrigerants and refrigeration systems, it doesn't mean that you know how to repair them any more that being Gas safe registered means that you will know how to fix a boiler


That's very, very true mate and as you know there's plenty who state they're boiler engineers & they don't know what this Ω is!!!
The point I'm trying to make is there's no reason why a boiler engineer that knows his onions can't do his F-Gas & start repairing HPs.

 

[Norcon]

Norcon, can you explain (to a novice) how this system works with out a large thermal store?

Have a read through this FAQ....
http://www.elementaryenergy.ie/68.html

The per-eko in the image is a fan assisted boiler designed for coal but alternative solid fuel fuels can be used as per their recommendations.
Its like an incinerator.
When wood is burned it will be less efficient than the gasifier but because no store is fitted the associated losses with the huge volume of stored water are not applicable.
It works fine. It may slumber inefficiently a little at times but you rarely see smoke from the flue terminal except on start up. And no space taken up with a huge store.
Having no store is not an option with the gasifier!

Also, could you run me through how you use this on a day to day basis? eg. fuel? Daily fills winter/summer?

Its fired up at 3:00 pm every day currently. An initial loading lasts about 2 hours afaik.
Which is builders timber waste at the moment bagged into 1.5 cu/m jumbo bags and eating about one of these a week.

Where does the flue exit here?

It runs horizontal for a short distance then 45 degrees through the wall, then a Y junction outside for cleaning purposes and then fixed to the side of the property.

I'm guessing putting this in a wooden shed aint a good plan?

I wouldn't do it nor recommend it regardless of what it says in the regulations. Especially one so small as you are suggesting.
A H2 modular steel shed would be a much better option.
Then you have to think about fuel storage. You need lots of space.

Biomass is not suited to everyone. The owner of the per-eko above in the image is a builder/farmer with acres of land and a large building yard with extensive housing which is close to his home.
The timber is bagged at his yard into the jumbo's and then telehandlered over to his home as and when he needs it. He has three sons to take care of it whilst he lies up on the sofa scratching himself.

 

[Corgigrouch]

That's very, very true mate and as you know there's plenty who state they're boiler engineers & they don't know what this Ω is!!!
The point I'm trying to make is there's no reason why a boiler engineer that knows his onions can't do his F-Gas & start repairing HPs.

Agreed, if you are smart enough there is nothing that cannot be done or fixed...

 

[wiffola]

Ok, I'm not convinced on the log boiler. I think we havent really got enough space for the logs and the huge accumulators, it's very expensive, we dont have an existing out house, the flue would have to be very high, smoke emission is questionable and I dont think I have time.

I'm now looking at an outside self contained pellet boiler. Still very expensive, but less manual feeds required.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

How would it compare to the cost of LPG 47kg bottles (our bottles are £52 at the mo)?

Bit of background on our LPG consumption: In the last 11 months (Dec 2 2010 - Nov 2 2011) we've used 14 bottles which is £728. Running boiler at 50c with 7 rads and 3 mixer showers a day. Heating on for 5 months a year.

 

[DeltaT2]

Have you a chimney & fireplace in the house? If so why not fit a log burning/multifuel stove?? Stock pile logs under a cover/tarp to season.

 

[wiffola]

Have you a chimney & fireplace in the house? If so why not fit a log burning/multifuel stove?? Stock pile logs under a cover/tarp to season.

Yes we have an open fire with lined chimney in lounge - full functional. One bricked up chimney with air vent in the dining area that hasn't got a pot on the chimney stack (has been covered over) and another open chimney breast that we raised up and put a new lintel in - we have our gas range cooker in.

Problem is my partner has asthma and even the thought of a combustion solution indoors would have her have an attack! I'm sure they only give very limited fumes but trust me it isn't worth the risk!

You see the dilemma i'm in!!

 

[DeltaT2]

Have you a chimney & fireplace in the house? If so why not fit a log burning/multifuel stove?? Stock pile logs under a cover/tarp to season.

Yes we have an open fire with lined chimney in lounge - full functional. One bricked up chimney with air vent in the dining area that hasn't got a pot on the chimney stack (has been covered over) and another open chimney breast that we raised up and put a new lintel in - we have our gas range cooker in.

Problem is my partner has asthma and even the thought of a combustion solution indoors would have her have an attack! I'm sure they only give very limited fumes but trust me it isn't worth the risk!

You see the dilemma i'm in!!

You are having a laugh??!! You're partner has asthma & you're considering a blown air split heatpump.............OMG!!
And you have a gas range cooker??

But surely you understand that an indoor multifuel stove will give you at least 2-3 air changes per hour in any room, it ventilates the room. Is her asthma not due to air born dust??

 

[wiffola]

Have you a chimney & fireplace in the house? If so why not fit a log burning/multifuel stove?? Stock pile logs under a cover/tarp to season.

Yes we have an open fire with lined chimney in lounge - full functional. One bricked up chimney with air vent in the dining area that hasn't got a pot on the chimney stack (has been covered over) and another open chimney breast that we raised up and put a new lintel in - we have our gas range cooker in.

Problem is my partner has asthma and even the thought of a combustion solution indoors would have her have an attack! I'm sure they only give very limited fumes but trust me it isn't worth the risk!

You see the dilemma i'm in!!

You are having a laugh??!! You're partner has asthma & you're considering a blown air split heatpump.............OMG!!
And you have a gas range cooker??

But surely you understand that an indoor multifuel stove will give you at least 2-3 air changes per hour in any room, it ventilates the room. Is her asthma not due to air born dust??

I thought that air to air could purify the air quality. I see your point that it would circuate dust in the room - big oversight from me there.

Gas cooker doesnt affect her at all.

An open fire or log burner automatically triggers her asthma - it could be physchological - but that doesnt change anything.

Trust me, as frustrating as it is for me, if she see's a log burner alight (even our neighbours hideously expensive clean burn) it will set her off either making me feel quilty or an actual asthma attack.

This is why we are limited to an air to water ASHP or an external log/pellet boiler.

I'm not trying to be awkward here - I'm just an innocent guy trying to find a solution that gets around all our constraints.