Owen Paterson

[AngleEyes]

Deluded - or what?

Post #63

Post #65

Your post makes no sense.
Both my statements are accurate, but not related. If you think otherwise, please explain why you think that my statements are either inaccurate or related.

To make it easy for you, I'll reprint my statements, so that you can peruse them and explain your comment.

I said: There is no legal definition of any specific ethnicities as far as I know. You can choose to be any ethnicity you like.

I also said: It's eminently possible for you to be an Afro-British person living in Portugal with dual nationalities.

So please explain how you think that my statements are either inaccurate, incorrect, or related, or contradictory.

 

[AngleEyes]

no, when a man says "I am a woman" and expects us to believe it, that is the opposite of reality.

Your comment makes even less sense than your repetitive "a man is not a woman".

If a person says he's a panda, and expects us to believe it, that is the opposite of reality. Pandas are black and white furry animals that eat bamboo shoots, and can't talk, nor drive gas guzzling American cars.

When someone who has been living as a man (for whatever reason) says, "I am a woman", she is no longer considered to be a man.
When someone who has been living as a woman (for whatever reason) says, "I am a man", he is no longer considered to be a woman.
I am amazed that you are incapable of understanding the difference between being in or out, or on or off. For instance, if I say I am on the swing, when I am obviously off it, that is the opposite of reality.
If I say I am in the room, when I am obviously outside of it, that is the opposite of reality.
For some religious or ideological reason, you refuse to accept it, despite it being extremely simple to understand.

 

[charliegolf]

Is Owen Paterson trans? If he is, (for whatever reason) he can't just decide (for whatever reason) that "I was a man yesterday, but now I am a woman. Well he can, but it will have no standing in UK law. To have an 'acquired sex', he (he's still he) will have to get a GRC- look it up. We call this, reality. (For whatever reason.) For some religious or ideological reason, you refuse to accept it, despite it being extremely simple to understand.

 

[AngleEyes]

Is Owen Paterson trans? If he is, (for whatever reason) he can't just decide (for whatever reason) that "I was a man yesterday, but now I am a woman. Well he can, but it will have no standing in UK law. To have an 'acquired sex', he (he's still he) will have to get a GRC- look it up. We call this, reality. (For whatever reason.) For some religious or ideological reason, you refuse to accept it, despite it being extremely simple to understand.

Some documents can be changed without a GRC (look it up), e.g medical records, passport, driving licence.
You can be recognised in your place of work in your chosen gender, etc.

A GRC is only required for Birth Certificate, HMRC, Death Certificate, and if they so desire for the sex to be correctly defined on their marriage/civil partnership certificate.
But this is in effect changing your sex, not just your gender.
Therefore you are, like JohnD, conflating sex and gender.

So Owen Paterson can be, if he so wishes, to decide (for whatever reason) that he was a man yesterday, but now he is a woman. And he will be covered by any equality law. (look it up).

 

[JohnD]

If a person says he's a panda, and expects us to believe it, that is the opposite of reality.

indeed.

When a man...

...says, "I am a woman", she is no longer considered to be a man.

also the opposite of reality.

 

[AngleEyes]

indeed.

When a man...


also the opposite of reality.

When a man says, she is a woman, she is no longer a man. That is simple fact. Therefore it's reality. Whether you like it or accept it or not is immaterial.

How do transgender people transition?
There are two different types of transition, or ways to affirm your gender: social transition and medical transition.
Social transitioning may include:

• coming out to your friends and family as transgender
  
  
• asking people to use pronouns (she/her, he/him, they/them) that match your gender identity
  
  
• going by a different name
  
  
• dressing/grooming in ways that match your gender identity

Regardless of whether a transgender person chooses to transition and how they choose to do it, they're no more “real” than other trans people who don’t transition. Someone’s gender identity should always be respected no matter how they decide to transition socially or medically.
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/l...ender/what-do-i-need-know-about-transitioning
​

But you're still failing to grasp the difference between gender and sex.
Sex is a biological label, but it can be wrong.
Gender is a chosen role.

Now pandas, they're just animals. They don't have the capability to understand the difference between gender and sex.

 

[Justin Passing]

Angie - please clarify how "sex" can be wrong?
It's what you're born as, in the document you cite.
If someone sees themself as a different gender, that doesn't make the sex wrong.
Sex = male/female, yes? You did say so I believe.

If someone is born male sees themself as a woman, you have a male woman.

So there are

female women
male women (= trans women, though I don't think that's a legal definition)
xxx
female men (= trans men, though I don't think that's a legal definition)
male men

xxx would be male or female "other" who may self identify as "Queer" perhaps. Some ask to be referred to as "they". Legal definitions become difficult.

The situation is further fuzzied by sexual orientation, ie whether someone is homo or hetero sexual (or both/neither).

It's a mess!

 

[AngleEyes]

Angie - please clarify how "sex" can be wrong?

That's what I was always taught by my parents.
They didn't explain that if they'd followed their own advice I wouldn't exist.

It's what you're born as, in the document you cite.
If someone sees themself as a different gender, that doesn't make the sex wrong.
Sex = male/female, yes? You did say so I believe.

If someone is born male sees themself as a woman, you have a male woman.

So there are

female women
male women (= trans women, though I don't think that's a legal definition)
xxx
female men (= trans men, though I don't think that's a legal definition)
male men

xxx would be male or female "other" who may self identify as "Queer" perhaps. Some ask to be referred to as "they". Legal definitions become difficult.

The situation is further fuzzied by sexual orientation, ie whether someone is homo or hetero sexual (or both/neither).

It's a mess!

Sorry my bad. The assigned label may be incorrect.
Everyone is assigned a male or female label. There are no other choices, but what to do when either choice is not appropriate?

In UK (at least) the birth certificate cannot be registered with the 'sex' label left blank.

 

[EFLImpudence]

The assigned label may be incorrect.
Everyone is assigned a male or female label. There are no other choices, but what to do when either choice is not appropriate?

Doesn't the 'assigned label' just mean - penis present or not? How can either be incorrect?

They cannot inspect the brain.

 

[AngleEyes]

Doesn't the 'assigned label' just mean - penis present or not? How can either be incorrect?

They cannot inspect the brain.

What about when both sets of genitals are present, or neither are, or so indistinct to be unable to assign a label?
Without a 'sex' label in UK, the birth cannot be registered.

 

[ellal]

George Eustice: It's very clear Owen Paterson won't get a peerage (msn.com)

Hmm...

"Johnson refuses to rule out giving Owen Paterson peerage, just saying it hasn't been discussed"

It'll happen at some point...

Meanwhile...

"No 10 says PM unable to attend sleaze debate because he's returning from north-east visit by train"

Makes a change from hiding in a fridge!

 

[EFLImpudence]

What about when both sets of genitals are present, or neither are, or so indistinct to be unable to assign a label?

I don't know what they do in such circumstances but is that what we are talking about? - and if:

Without a 'sex' label in UK, the birth cannot be registered.

How do they decide? Toss a coin?

 

[AngleEyes]

I don't know what they do in such circumstances but is that what we are talking about? - and if:

I think you mean when, It is a condition that occurs without doubt.

How do they decide? Toss a coin?

Perhaps the parents get to choose the sex.
The 2021 census was designed to asses the number of people affected, It hasn't been know before. Some researchers have estimated nearly 2% of the population.

Others have estimated 1 in 1,500

A child that is born neither male or female is a rare occurrence but babies born with some form of Disorder of Sex Development (DSD) happens in one in every 1,500 births, according to the support group Accord Alliance.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-14459843​

That's just over 5,000,000 at any one time, using the US definition of a billion.

Sex and gender identity question development for Census 2021
https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/censu...enderidentityquestiondevelopmentforcensus2021
​

I'd like to know what the TERFs wrote in their forms.

 

[Tigercubrider]

I believe that when a baby was born in the 50's/60's that any confusion of gender was surgically corrected "automatically"?
Lady Colin whatsit was supposedly misdiagnosed as male at birth, reassigned later, and is now a woman.
Medicine back then wasn't quite a science

 

[JohnD]

I believe that when a baby was born in the 50's/60's that any confusion of gender was surgically corrected "automatically"?
Lady Colin whatsit was supposedly misdiagnosed as male at birth, reassigned later, and is now a woman.
Medicine back then wasn't quite a science

TWs are not people born with a deformity. There are only tiny numbers of such people. TWs are overwhelmingly men who have said "I am a woman." No other qualification is required.