Part P - kitchen DIY

[Taylortwocities]

Care of building controls http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permission/commonprojects/electrics/[/QUOTE]

Thank you for that!

It does clear up a much debated issue on what is actually meant by a new circuit.
Some had asserted that wiring connected to a (new)FCU was to be considered a new circuit. But the planning portal says:

the installation of a complete new circuit – for example a ring or lighting circuit, or a new circuit for a cooker, shower or immersion heater

 

[flameport]

From the responses, it appears at any change to electrics needs to be formally signed off by someone who is competent in BS7671?

Not true.

I am still confused as to the line between what is DIYable and what isn't

DIY = all of it. No restrictions at all.

I am fully happy with major works needing compliance, I'm not arguing any idiot can rewire a house, but adding a new socket on an existing ring isn't exactly rocket science and I can't believe that needs massive processes/sign off.

It doesn't. Installed, tested, test results written down. Testing and writing probably 5 minutes.

The certificates are available for free. Here's one:
https://www.elecsa.co.uk/Documents/.../BS7671-Amd1-Minor-Works-Certificate-(1).aspx

Certificates for new circuits are longer, but they too can be had for nothing. This: https://www.elecsa.co.uk/Documents/...1-Electrical-Installation-Certificate-v2.aspx

Test equipment can be purchased or hired. If you don't know how to use it, then either take time to find out, or pay someone else to do the testing.

 

[EFLImpudence]

From the responses, it appears at any change to electrics needs to be formally signed off by someone who is competent in BS7671?

Sort of but 'signed off' implies formality.

Seems to say "Yeah - you should, but if you don't on your own head, and if local authorities find out they will give you a kicking". (in jest!)

Yes, most laws are not enforced until something goes wrong.

I am still confused as to the line between what is DIYable and what isn't - can't believe everyone buying a new light bulb/ light fitting/ socket in B&Q fills out a BS 7671 form or gets someone in to do it afterwards? And where is the line as to what is JDFI - changing a light bulb/face place/ moving socket/ adding socket? Is there a definitive list as to what is JFDI DIYable without any paperwork or BS 7671? I thought the list on the Part P of notifiable was this but clearly not - but it must be in black n white somewhere what is JFDI DIYable - even if it says "you can only change a lightbulb". Or not

All work is DIYable if you know how to do it.
What is the definition DIY work? You may be able to build a hadron collider but is it DIY work?

What does JFDI stand for?

I am fully happy with major works needing compliance, I'm not arguing any idiot can rewire a house, but adding a new socket on an existing ring isn't exactly rocket science and I can't believe that needs massive processes/sign off.

Adding a socket may be easy but without testing you will not know that it is safe.
There may be an existing fault on the circuit or you may make a mistake.

Maybe I got excited reading the new Part P and seeing MINOR kitchen work was non notifiable and assumed it was now permitted - I'll do more research.

You're doing it again:
Part P makes no distinction between minor and other work.
It is true that since the relaxation of the notifiable list, most minor work is now not notifiable but this is NOT because it is minor work.

Some minor work is notifiable and some is not.

 

[JohnW2]

Care of building controls http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permission/commonprojects/electrics/[/QUOTE]
Thank you for that! It does clear up a much debated issue on what is actually meant by a new circuit. Some had asserted that wiring connected to a (new)FCU was to be considered a new circuit. But the planning portal says: the installation of a complete new circuit – for example a ring or lighting circuit, or a new circuit for a cooker, shower or immersion heater

I'm confused - where did that quote come from? The linked page seems to be talking entirely in terms of pre-April 2013 notification rules. What am I missing?

That quote you provide above (wherever it comes from) certainly would clarify the FCU issue (and correspond with what I regard as common sense). I'm not so sure that it would resolve the disagreement between BAS and myself about circuits originating from a mini-CU (which, in many case,s could just as well have been two or three FCUs) in an outhouse that was itself supplied from an 'existing circuit'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

I'm confused - where did that quote come from? The linked page seems to be talking entirely in terms of pre-April 2013 notification rules. What am I missing?

The link is from the governments planning portal.

It says this
"alterations to existing circuits – such as adding an extra power point or lighting point – but only in ‘special locations’. In England, special locations are the spaces around baths and showers. In Wales, special locations include also kitchens and outdoors." and "In England, the rules were simplified in April 2013, so that now regulation 12(6A) of the Building Regulations 2010 identifies notifiable work as comprising the installation of a new or replacement consumer unit, the installation of a complete new circuit connected to the consumer unit, or alteration work in and around a bath or shower"
So that would suggest to me post 2013 amendments

 

[JohnW2]

I'm confused - where did that quote come from? The linked page seems to be talking entirely in terms of pre-April 2013 notification rules. What am I missing?

The link is from the governments planning portal. It says this
"alterations to existing circuits – such as adding an extra power point or lighting point – but only in ‘special locations’. In England, special locations are the spaces around baths and showers. In Wales, special locations include also kitchens and outdoors." and "In England, the rules were simplified in April 2013, so that now regulation 12(6A) of the Building Regulations 2010 identifies notifiable work as comprising the installation of a new or replacement consumer unit, the installation of a complete new circuit connected to the consumer unit, or alteration work in and around a bath or shower" ... so that would suggest to me post 2013 amendments

I think you must be looking at some page other than the one you linked to - on that linked page it makes no reference to 2013 (or post April 2013), but says:

The Building Regulations allow certain works (known as non-notifiable or minor work) to be carried out without having to notify building control or using a registered electrician. Such work includes:
Replacing any electrical fitting (for example, socket outlets, light fittings, control switches)
Adding a fused spur (which is a socket that has a fuse and a switch that is connected to an appliance eg, heater) to an existing circuit (but not in a kitchen, bathroom or outdoors)
Any repair or maintenance work
Installing or upgrading main or supplementary equipotential bonding
Installing cabling at extra low voltage for signalling, cabling or communication purposes (for example, telephone cabling, cabling for fire alarm or burglar alarm systems, or heating control systems).

... which are, of course, the pre-April-2013 English rules (and still the rules in Wales). Exactly what page are you looking at?

Kind Regards, John

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

There must be something wrong with the link you are getting?

Do you need permissionCommon ProjectsElectrics
Electrics

Planning Permission

Planning permission is not generally required for installing or replacing electrical circuits. However, if you live in a listed building you are advised to contact your Local Planning Authority before carrying our any work.

Building Regulations

If you are carrying out electrical installation work in your home or garden in England and Wales, you must comply with the rules in the Building Regulations. It is best to use an installer registered with a competent person scheme (a ‘registered competent person’) who can self-certify compliance with the Building Regulations.
If an installer is not registered, then certain riskier jobs (identified as ‘notifiable’ in the Building Regulations) will need to be inspected, approved and certificated by:

a building control body (your local authority or a private approved inspector), or
in England only, an electrician registered with a third-party certification scheme (a ‘registered third-party certifier’).
The building control body or registered third-party certifier must be notified before work starts.

Notifiable jobs include:

the installation of a new consumer unit or fuse box
the installation of a complete new circuit – for example a ring or lighting circuit, or a new circuit for a cooker, shower or immersion heater
alterations to existing circuits – such as adding an extra power point or lighting point – but only in ‘special locations’. In England, special locations are the spaces around baths and showers. In Wales, special locations include also kitchens and outdoors.
Most repairs, replacements and maintenance jobs, and alterations or additions to existing circuits outside special locations, are not notifiable.
The Building Regulations set out overall criteria and requirements to ensure electrical safety. Approved Document P provides further practical guidance for undertaking this type of work. You should bear in mind that any electrical work you carry out within your home, garden, garage, shed or other storage building must comply with the requirements of the Building Regulations. If you are unsure about the requirements, you should contact your local authority’s building control department.

All electrical work should follow the safety standards in BS 7671 (the 'wiring regulations'), which can be found on the British Standards Institute (BSI) website.

These rules have been introduced to help reduce the number of deaths, injuries and fires caused by faulty installations.

The Building Regulations set standards for electrical installation work only in relation to dwellings (houses, flats etc). If the work is carried out in industrial or commercial buildings it is covered by the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989. The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) is responsible for making sure that electrical installation work in these kinds of buildings is safe and if you have any queries about work in these buildings you should contact the HSE.

The Building Regulations do not restrict who may carry out electrical installation work. If you want to do the work yourself you should make sure that you know what you need to do before starting any works. There are a number of reputable guides that you can use to help you.
The Building Regulations do not set standards for the safety of electrical appliances but they do require that fixed connections of appliances are safe.


Checking for safety

Where the electrical installation work is notifiable it should be checked to make sure that it is safe. This checking can be done by:

the electrician who carries out the work, provided the electrician is registered with a competent person self-certification scheme, or
a building control body – either the building control department of your local authority or a private approved inspector, or
in England only, an electrician registered with a third-party certification scheme.


Competent person schemes

An electrician registered with a competent person self-certification scheme authorised by the Secretary of State will self-certify that notifiable work is safe and complies with the Building Regulations. When using a registered electrician, you do not need to notify a building control body.

Once the works are complete the electrician will arrange for you to receive a Building Regulations compliance certificate within 30 days, and for your local authority to be notified about the work for its own records. If you do not receive this certificate, please contact your electrician’s registration body.

The registered electrician should also provide you with a completed Electrical Installation Certificate to show that the work has been tested for safety.
It is advisable to ask the electrician to provide information about which scheme they belong to and their membership number. You will then be able to check the electrical competent person register at www.electricalcompetentperson.co.uk to make sure they are registered. You can find a list of organisations that run competent person schemes for electrical installation work on the Gov.uk website.


Local authority building control

You may make a Building Regulations application to your local authority building control department if the electrician you employ to carry out notifiable work is not registered with one of the relevant competent person schemes, or if you do the work yourself. You should contact the local authority before you start the work and they will explain the requisite procedures to you.

It is also best to discuss with the local authority how they wish to inspect and check the works you are carrying out.
Approved inspector building control

An approved inspector is a body which carries out the same functions as local authority building control. If you use an approved inspector they will explain how the approved inspector system works. If at the end of the work the approved inspector is satisfied that the work is safe, you will be given a copy of the final notice.


Third-party certification schemes

Building control bodies will generally employ a qualified electrician to inspect notifiable electrical work on their behalf.

In England only, it has been possible since April 2014 for you to go directly to an electrician to certify work, without involving a building control body, provided the electrician is registered with an authorised third-party certification scheme.

You can find a list of organisations that run third-party certification schemes for electrical installation work on the Gov.uk website.


Minor works

The Building Regulations allow certain minor works (known as non-notifiable work) to be carried out without having to notify building control or use a registered electrician.

In England, the rules were simplified in April 2013, so that now regulation 12(6A) of the Building Regulations 2010 identifies notifiable work as comprising the installation of a new or replacement consumer unit, the installation of a complete new circuit connected to the consumer unit, or alteration work in and around a bath or shower.

All other work is non-notifiable although, like notifiable work, it should be designed and installed, and inspected, tested and certificated in accordance with BS 7671. If local authorities find that non-notifiable work is unsafe and non-compliant, they can take enforcement action.
For Wales, the Building Regulations still identify non-notifiable work as including:

any repair or maintenance work or like-for like replacement
any addition or alteration to an existing circuit that is not in a kitchen, bathroom or outdoors
installing or upgrading main or supplementary equipotential bonding
installing extra low voltage cabling outside bathrooms for telephone, fire alarm, burglar alarm and heating systems, etc.
If you are not sure whether the work you want to undertake is notifiable, you should contact your local authority building control department for advice.

Non-notifiable electrical work can also present a risk to safety. If qualified electricians carry out the work they should give you a Minor Works Certificate, which means that they have tested the work to make sure it is safe. If you do the work yourself you may wish to engage a qualified electrician to check it for you.
Related links:

Building work, replacements and repairs to your home
The Building Act 1984 and the Building Regulations

Disclaimer

This is an introductory guide and is not a definitive source of legal information. Read the full disclaimer here.

This guidance relates to the planning regime for England. Policy in Wales may differ. If in doubt contact your Local Planning Authority.

All looks post 2013 to me, don't forget that it does mention that Wales and England have different regs.

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

Ctrl-F5 ?

 

[EFLImpudence]

...Disclaimer

This is an introductory guide and is not a definitive source of legal information. Read the full disclaimer here.

This guidance relates to the planning regime for England. Policy in Wales may differ. If in doubt contact your Local Planning Authority.

 

[ClockPie]

Thank you all for your responses.

I think someone hit nail on head - I have been confusing "non notifiable" as meaning "no signoff required", and reading the DIY bits as "you can just do it if its minor"

As for testing, I'd have just used a multimeter, confirmed continuity and no shorts, and used a plug in tester (aka simple). So I'd not be doing the tests necessary for the BS7671. (I'd have thought added a new socket to existing ring wouldn't have caused any requirement to test anything else).

JFDI means "Just **** do it.


My question as to what you can do without anyone "trained or skilled" signing it off is unanswered, so I'll post another thread as this thread question is answered.

I'll need to find a friendly local electrician and find what I can DIY and what they need to do in order to be compliant for the kitchen.

 

[EFLImpudence]

JFDI means "Just **** do it.

Thank you.

 

[JohnW2]

There must be something wrong with the link you are getting?

This is totally bizarre! ...

Do you need permissionCommon ProjectsElectrics
Electrics

Planning Permission

Planning permission is not generally required for installing or replacing electrical circuits. However, if you live in a listed building you are advised to contact your Local Planning Authority before carrying our any work.

Building Regulations

If you are carrying out electrical installation work in your home or garden in England and Wales, you must comply with the rules in the Building Regulations. It is best to use an installer registered with a competent person scheme (a ‘registered competent person’) who can self-certify compliance with the Building Regulations.
If an installer is not registered, then certain riskier jobs (identified as ‘notifiable’ in the Building Regulations) will need to be inspected, approved and certificated by:

a building control body (your local authority or a private approved inspector), or
in England only, an electrician registered with a third-party certification scheme (a ‘registered third-party certifier’).
The building control body or registered third-party certifier must be notified before work starts.

All looks post 2013 to me, don't forget that it does mention that Wales and England have different regs.

.. and what I see (similar but different, no mention of 2013 or about England and Wales being different, and reference only to the pre-2013 notification rules) is:

Untitled

• JohnW2
• 31 May 2015
• 1

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

I get the same as PBoD - strange.

 

[JohnW2]

I get the same as PBoD - strange.

Very odd! Refreshing the cache makes no difference. I'm going to try closing and re-opening the browser - watch this space.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

I get the same as PBoD - strange.

Very odd! Refreshing the cache makes no difference. I'm going to try closing and re-opening the browser - watch this space.

Hmmmm. No difference - I still get the same page!

Kind Regards, John