Part P loophole

[ban-all-sheds]

What I mean is, if he knows it is a kitchen, he will be wiring it up to suit the appliances etc. that he will be fittting later.

Yup. So?

Most kitchens will end up being completely stripped whilst the first fix electrics and plumbing are being done. To say that whilst it is empty it is not a kitchen may be technically true. But when you start designing your circuits, you have to take into account what room it is you are creating.

Which affects the design of the installation within the room.

The appropriateness of the design has nothing to do with its notifiability.

If you want to side-step notification, then you may as well just not tell anyone you are doing any notifiable work. It is just as untruthful as pretending it's not a kitchen you're wiring up.

No it's not.

Please answer the following question:

Does the room contain a sink and food preparation facilities - yes or no?

Oh good, I'll cancel my membership to NAPIT.

You may not have to - you may get thrown out for not providing a professional level of service... "I didn't listen properly when they said what the room was for but I guess its for a big computer installation"

There are sockets at desk level - obviously for laptops and computer terminals.

Or laboratory equipment of some sort.

There is a 32amp supply with an isolator switch - I assume to power a large computer or air conditioning.

Or laboratory equipment of some sort.

There is a 3A fcu - probably for some sort of extraction fan
There are 2 or three other FCU's going to outlets nearer floor level - printers, shredder perhaps?

Or laboratory equipment of some sort.

There also seem to be some water pipes around the place but I guess the computer is so powerful that it will need water cooling.

Maybe the occupants are dead keen on chemistry, and the plumbing is for laboratory sinks.

So, its just re-arranging existing circuits, yippee, I don't need to notify!

Please answer the following question:

Does the room contain a sink and food preparation facilities - yes or no?

Oh good, I'll cancel my membership to NAPIT.

Why - do you only get jobs like that one?

 

[Taylortwocities]

Ooh a laboratory, hadn't thought of that. Could be - maybe the gas supply is for the bunsen burners? - makes sense.

Taylortwocities wrote:
Oh good, I'll cancel my membership to NAPIT.

You may not have to - you may get thrown out for not providing a professional level of service... "I didn't listen properly when they said what the room was for but I guess its for a big computer installation"

Aah well, time for a change maybe - just commercial for me perhaps - once I've got the hang of this lab/computer stuff.

Please answer the following question:

Does the room contain a sink and food preparation facilities - yes or no?

Maybe you've got a point. There's a bucket under the cold tap, and the builders brought in a sandwich toaster today.

So, maybe its a K - K - K Nah, I've forgotten that word.

I've got it ! Kennel

 

[sparkyspike]

I suppose you could argue that technically - with no sink (yet) and no taps (yet) it is just a room. Is this a useful loophole though? If you're rewiring like-for-like, i.e. no new circuits, then fine. You won't be notifying, you won't be certificating, necessarily, and you won't have to be Part P approved.

It will come down to whether your work is safe - and if you're trying to avoid notification there's a chance it won't be.

 

[Taylortwocities]

If you're rewiring like-for-like, i.e. no new circuits, then fine............., you won't be certificating,

Oh yes you will!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Ooh a laboratory, hadn't thought of that. Could be - maybe the gas supply is for the bunsen burners? - makes sense.

There you go - you're getting the hang of it

Maybe you've got a point. There's a bucket under the cold tap, and the builders brought in a sandwich toaster today.

Some builders can mess up electrical work even when they don't do it.

Oh hang on - maybe the bucket is a toilet, not a sink?

Try p*****g in it...

So, maybe its a K - K - K Nah, I've forgotten that word.

I've got it ! Kennel

And the gas is so the little doggies don't get cold, and there's water for them to drink, and the sockets are at the height they are so that the little doggies can't do to them what you did to the builders' bucket.

It's obvious really...

But enough of this frivolity...

I suppose you could argue that technically - with no sink (yet) and no taps (yet) it is just a room. Is this a useful loophole though?

No.

If you're rewiring like-for-like, i.e. no new circuits, then fine. You won't be notifying, you won't be certificating, necessarily, and you won't have to be Part P approved.

It will come down to whether your work is safe - and if you're trying to avoid notification there's a chance it won't be.

Which highlights the cynical inconsistency of the rules.

If it really wasn't, never was, and won't ever be a kitchen - say it's a lounge, then the same electrical work would not be notifiable, and the same question marks would hang over its safety if it didn't get tested.

But people don't often rip and refurbish living rooms, so there was no pressing need for electricians to try and claim sole rights to the electrical work there for financial reasons, was there.....

 

[Softus]

BAS,
The op has clearly stated that he will be turning the room back into a kitchen, which means he will be wiring it as such.

Which means what?

sparkyspike's statement doesn't contain any ambiguity - it means what it says.

"turning the room back into a kitchen" means that the empty room will be populated, sooner or later, with things that kitchens always have in them, such as a sink, taps, supply pipework, waste pipework, cupboards, lighting, a cooker, a 'fridge, and a worktop with socket outlets above it for use with portable electrical appliances.

"wiring it as such" means providing outlets, switches, connection units, cables and, at the CU, CPDs that support the use of the above electrical appliances, and do it all in a way that is safe as defined by both legislation and any chosen acceptable standard of circuit design, installation and testing.

If at the time he does the work the room is not a kitchen then at the time he does the work it is not notifiable. (Assuming it's not anyway, e.g. new circuits)

It would become notifiable the first instant that the circuits are energised after the room becomes a kitchen.

If you have an alternative interpretation of the spirit of the Building Regulations, then it would be interesting, and entertaining, to see it.

 

[tSpark]

I know quite a lot of people with cooker outlet plates on their living room walls....honest!

Hey, why not turn your house into a commercial premises, and forget part p, you could still stay there overnight as the "Security Guard"!!!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

With a patrol dog!!

Of course, you'd have to sack yourself if you fell asleep.

 

[tSpark]

hey, why not!!, Taylortwocities has just fitted out his kennel

 

[Screwed]

Hello,

Just seen this thread and it has some relevance to my situation at the moment. We have just ripped out our old kitchen and had an extension built - the kitchen hasn't been extended or moved but is now open plan. Everything is empty as I have yet to have the new kitchen delivered yet.

I got the building inspector round from the council as I thought we would be able o get our completion certificate but he says he needs to come back once the kitchen is in and also requires Part P certification.

Now, we have already had our house re-wired this year (before the extension) and received our certificate and also confirmation from the council that they had received this from our electrician. Why do we need it again for the kitchen? Obviously there has been electrical work done in the new extension but this was only an addition to the already certified existing dining room ring?

My next question is, can a someone that is not NICEIC registered do electrical work and then have it signed off by somebody that is? Say for instance, can I move the sockets around in our kitchen (as the lay out will be different from how it was originally) and then have someone inspect and issue the relevant paperwork for me to submit?

Many thanks.

 

[hairyben]

My next question is, can a someone that is not NICEIC registered do electrical work and then have it signed off by somebody that is? Say for instance, can I move the sockets around in our kitchen (as the lay out will be different from how it was originally) and then have someone inspect and issue the relevant paperwork for me to submit?

No, firstly it breaks NIC membership rules to declare someone elses work as your own.

If you first fix- and the cable runs are clearly visible for inspection- some sparks will second fix & notify as their own.

 

[Screwed]

"If you first fix- and the cable runs are clearly visible for inspection- some sparks will second fix & notify as their own."

Is this contravening the membership rules and will this be ok for the building inspector? When we had our flat re-wired the guy that did it wasn't NIC registered but he just ran the wires in and left the consumer unit untouched, the NIC registered bloke then came in, attached all the sockets and did the final wire in on the consumer unit - is this a contravention?

Many thanks for the swift reply!!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I got the building inspector round from the council as I thought we would be able o get our completion certificate but he says he needs to come back once the kitchen is in and also requires Part P certification.

When you submitted the plans for Building Regulations approval, what did you say would be the method used to comply with Part P?

Now, we have already had our house re-wired this year (before the extension) and received our certificate and also confirmation from the council that they had received this from our electrician. Why do we need it again for the kitchen? Obviously there has been electrical work done in the new extension but this was only an addition to the already certified existing dining room ring?

There's your answer - electrical work in kitchen areas is notifiable. The above fun & games is all very well, but your LABC are involved because of the other building work, so I leave it up to you to decide how sensible it would be, and what your chances of success would be, to play hardball with the BCO and demand that he sticks rigidly to the letter of the law, recognises that there was no kitchen there when the wiring was done and issues the completion certificate....

"If you first fix- and the cable runs are clearly visible for inspection- some sparks will second fix & notify as their own."

Is this contravening the membership rules

Yes.

and will this be ok for the building inspector?

I'm sure it will.

When we had our flat re-wired the guy that did it wasn't NIC registered but he just ran the wires in and left the consumer unit untouched, the NIC registered bloke then came in, attached all the sockets and did the final wire in on the consumer unit - is this a contravention?

Depends on what he certified. If he said he did the entire rewire it was a contravention.

If he said he just replaced the CU then it was not, but that leaves you exposed if anybody should ever ask to see the certificates or Building Regulations completion notice for the rewire.

 

[Screwed]

Hi,

This is very confusing and I can only imagine what sort of difficulties an elderly person or someone more vulnerable than me would have if they required any electrical work done!!

There was a kitchen in when we had the re-wire done in March. This has now been removed and we have had an extension built. I am going to replace the kitchen now the extension is finished but it is going in exactly the same place that it came from, the only difference is there is a wall removed that maked it all open plan. As the kitchen had already been certified (in March) I don't know why he needs it certifying again as I am just putting existing sockets back and more than likely adding some to an existing certified ring. The extension that has been built is adding on to the existing dining room and is now open plan with the kitchen, the electrics in the extension are an addition to the ring in the dining room (seperate obviously to the kitchen) this too has been certified in March.

One last thing, sorry, above you say it IS contravention to run cables and have it visible for inspection and certification by someone else but then say it will be ok for the building inspector if someone does this?? Or have I got it all wrong??

Sorry for my confusion and thanks for your help!!

 

[electronicsuk]

One last thing, sorry, above you say it IS contravention to run cables and have it visible for inspection and certification by someone else but then say it will be ok for the building inspector if someone does this?? Or have I got it all wrong??

Building control can send someone round to inspect your first and second fix and issue the relevant certificates for a fee of between £80-£250 depending on your area and the work involved. However, an electrician registered with a self certification scheme CANNOT certify any work for you unless he carries said work out himself.