Planning permission for fence (restrospective) refused!

[rjm2k]

If it was me I would wait for enforcement and then lower it to pd height. I don't know the construction but would expect you can take a bit off the top of the posts and a bit off the bottom of the panels so you can move them down. You only need to do this where it is less than 2m from the highway. Note the verge may be considered part of the highway depending on who owns it. Note enforcement means an enforcement notice not just a stroppy letter.

The easiest and least stressful option is just reduce the height to pd levels

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Where have half the posts gone? Jeez if you guys go through life bleating and complaining to anyone who thinks you're ignorant or whatever, no wonder the planning system stumps you.

 

[clifford1]

Note the verge may be considered part of the highway depending on who owns it.

It's got nothing to do with who owns it. Highway is highway regardless of ownership.
Most houses on minor roads own the land to the centre of the road, for what it's worth, which is nothing.

 

[arakis777]

Yes it is curious that some of the posts were deleted/removed.

Anyway I received an unsolicited letter from a firm yesterday who deal in planning refusals and said they had a 70% to 80% chance of winning my case. The fee however is £400 to £500 just for a fence!. Maybe I am cynical but perhaps this is a racket between the council and these firms.

I got talking to the firm and gleaned some good tips e.g. mention we put up the fence after my wife was attacked in our home by the planning permission complainant next door, get a petition together and offer to make a change e.g. will to paint it a darker colour.

I am also prepared to do local search and show examples of similar fences and successful appeals etc.

Do you think these firms can do a better job than going it alone? I really don't want to spend that kind of money as I think I could put a good case together myself.


Arakis777

 

[leeco]

don't pay the firm nothing and do as this poster says.

If it was me I would wait for enforcement and then lower it to pd height. I don't know the construction but would expect you can take a bit off the top of the posts and a bit off the bottom of the panels so you can move them down. You only need to do this where it is less than 2m from the highway. Note the verge may be considered part of the highway depending on who owns it. Note enforcement means an enforcement notice not just a stroppy letter.

The easiest and least stressful option is just reduce the height to pd levels

 

[arakis777]

don't pay the firm nothing and do as this poster says.

If it was me I would wait for enforcement and then lower it to pd height. I don't know the construction but would expect you can take a bit off the top of the posts and a bit off the bottom of the panels so you can move them down. You only need to do this where it is less than 2m from the highway. Note the verge may be considered part of the highway depending on who owns it. Note enforcement means an enforcement notice not just a stroppy letter.

The easiest and least stressful option is just reduce the height to pd levels

Yes I agree I don't want to spend any more money than I have to, the firm did a google street view and couldn't see how the council could object and said they would win the case for me.

The end of our front garden is at least 2.5 metres away from the road/ highways curb, our fence is at least a foot behind the edge of our front garden making the distance even longer. The council must own the verge as they cut the grass on it regularly. If the height is the only issue with the council we would have to cut at least a foot from the height of the fence. This is really impossible as there is not enough at the top and bottom so we would have to cut out part of the middle which is impossible. We can't exactly glue top and bottom back together.

If council are going to be pig headed we might even have to bury the fence a foot down by digging a trench this would not be cheap not to mention a pain in the ass. We could put a hedge in front but knowing this council they would want us to put in front of gate as well.

 

[jeds]

Let's be honest, the loveliness of the fence is a matter of taste. Personally I think it looks a bit twee. The comparisons with the chocolate box cottages don't work for me either. Twee little picket fences belong on twee little chocolate box cottages, I'm not sure they belong on estate council houses - well, not with finial topped posts anyway.

It's been done to death now but I agree that you shouldn't have put in a planning app. All you've done by doing that is give them something to work with. If you hadn't they would now have to think about enforcement which would be almost impossible to justify. Still, done now so what to do?

Personally I'd plant some shrubs in front of the fence. You've got a bit of space there to do that and the right ones will soften it up and take the harshness out. I'd also cut off the finials. Then appeal but don't employ anyone - just do it yourself. You can do it online and there's no fee. Whatever you do don't lay it on with the attack and how the neighbour's a nutter etc. Just say the application was refused and you disagree with the reasons. If you can find any similar local fences it wouldn't do any harm to submit a photo with the location but don't go mad. With some planting and the finials gone I'd be surprised if your appeal isn't allowed.

PS. If you do appeal, before the inspector visits, you might also consider toning the whiteness down a bit. Spray it with slightly muddy water. You an always clean it up afterwards if you prefer the unnaturally bright look.

 

[arakis777]

I received this email below from the planning officer yesterday. Maybe I am being thick here but she is still talking of lowering or even removing the fence (over my dead body). The refusal clearly states it is on the character of the fence not the height. They advise I do the following

(1) it back 5 feet from the front???

(2) replant a hedge there, (original hedge was barely a foot in width anyway)

(3) paint the fence brown or black

So in effect I could lower the fence yet they would still demand the other three changes above! This makes no sense

They also want to knwo within 21 days of my appeal, yet by my calculation I have almost 10 weeks left to appeal (refusal was at the beginning of this month).




Hello Mr and Mrs [ ]

 

The need for planning permission is based on the Town and Country Planning Act (General Permitted Development) Order 1995 (as amended) Schedule 2 Part 2 Class A. As the fence does not fit the criteria being that it is a means of enclosure that fronts a highway and is over a metre in height it required planning permission. This was explained onsite with Mrs [ ] and in my letter of the 23rd of April 2013.

 

The height is the reason planning permission was required.   The reasons for refusal are in the Decision Notice and these would need to be discussed with the planning officer, [ ]

 

Thank you for making me aware that you wish to submit an appeal.  The Council would look to receive notification that an appeal has been submitted within 21 days from the date of this letter, or to have entered meaningful discussions regarding the removal of the fence or its reduction to a metre or less.

 
I should point out that the advice is given at officer level only and without prejudice to any formal determination by or on behalf of the Local Planning Authority.

 

If you wish to discuss this matter further please contact me on the above number or by email.

 

Kind regards

 
[ ]

 

[arakis777]

Let's be honest, the loveliness of the fence is a matter of taste. Personally I think it looks a bit twee. The comparisons with the chocolate box cottages don't work for me either. Twee little picket fences belong on twee little chocolate box cottages, I'm not sure they belong on estate council houses - well, not with finial topped posts anyway.

It's been done to death now but I agree that you shouldn't have put in a planning app. All you've done by doing that is give them something to work with. If you hadn't they would now have to think about enforcement which would be almost impossible to justify. Still, done now so what to do?

Personally I'd plant some shrubs in front of the fence. You've got a bit of space there to do that and the right ones will soften it up and take the harshness out. I'd also cut off the finials. Then appeal but don't employ anyone - just do it yourself. You can do it online and there's no fee. Whatever you do don't lay it on with the attack and how the neighbour's a nutter etc. Just say the application was refused and you disagree with the reasons. If you can find any similar local fences it wouldn't do any harm to submit a photo with the location but don't go mad. With some planting and the finials gone I'd be surprised if your appeal isn't allowed.

PS. If you do appeal, before the inspector visits, you might also consider toning the whiteness down a bit. Spray it with slightly muddy water. You an always clean it up afterwards if you prefer the unnaturally bright look.

Yes everything is a matter of taste. The neighbours do love it as well as passers by. The road we live on is not a council estate, the vast majority have always been privately owned. Many of the houses have ornate designs for their fronts. Some of the terraces were owned by the railway then bought by the council (when the rail line closed) and then many were sold off. We bought at full price on the open market.

We really didn't know the council couldn't make us get planning permission for it. But as you say we are where we are.

Thanks for the other advice. I think what I may need to do is contact the council even when the appeal is launched to see what can be done amicably.

One thing is I have spoken to about three firms now and they all say push the psycho / criminal neighbour angle next door. That is overriding reason we put up the fence in the first place.

 

[jeds]

Not sure what point you are making there. If it's the three firms saying push the psycho/criminal neighbour thing they are wrong. Inspectors make decisions based on planning matters. Psycho criminal neighbours don't come into it.

 

[rjm2k]

Op have you found your councils street design guide?

 

[rjm2k]

I received this email below from the planning officer yesterday. Maybe I am being thick here but she is still talking of lowering or even removing the fence (over my dead body). The refusal clearly states it is on the character of the fence not the height.

Yes it seems strange that they are saying the way to improve it is to turn it into pd but how does that make it no longer poor design?

(1) it back 5 feet from the front???

2m high if more than 2m from a highway is pd but its the same white fence design

(2) replant a hedge there, (original hedge was barely a foot in width anyway)

Unusual for them to specify planting, but they don't mention what height the hedge needs to be , maybe a row of box?

(3) paint the fence brown or black

Easily done and they dont mention what paint, water based wouldn't last long.

So in effect I could lower the fence yet they would still demand the other three changes above! This makes no sense

No once you lower it to pd they can't do anything.

Check with them but it may be that any one of those changes is enough.

 

[SimonH2]

A thought came to me ... but it'll need someone with in depth knowledge of the rules to say whether it's bol... err, rubbish or not.

IIRC, when measuring heights, it's the highest point on the natural ground surface that counts ? The OP appears to have ground that slopes side-side (ie the road itself isn't level), and also the ground where the fence is is lower than immediately against the kerb.

So what's his datum ?
If he extended the run from the house to the front out a bit so it goes up to the kerb, would that then make that higher ground the datum ? If so, then what is the height of the fence now ?

Otherwise, as already suggested, dig the posts in a bit, bury the bottom of the pickets, and lower it so it's PD and tell the PD where to go. Or lift the turf between fence and kerb, infill with what he dug out for the fence posts, and put the turf back down so it's level from kerb to fence - datum has now gone up

 

[rjm2k]

What was the outcome?

 

[arakis777]

Hi

I eventually heard back from the planning inspectorate just before Christmas and he has approved our appeal. He accepted our compromise of us planting a hedge in front of the fence. He left it open i.e. didn't mention min or max height, hedge type etc.

I have a feeling he would have approved our appeal even if I didn't offer compromise, however I didn't want to take a risk before hand.

In his reply he took a swipe at the council by dismissing all their reasons for their original refusal. He also said if any part of hedge does within 5 years we can just replant in the next season (didn't mention what to do if after 5 years )

My questions are

(1) We plan to plant a beautiful floral hedge in front of the fence certainly not the poor quality threadbare hedge next door . Can the council stipulate what kind of hedge it is?

(2) We plan for the hedge to be no more that 2 feet in height so that we can at least see the top of the fence. Am I right in assuming as the hedge will now be in effect the frontage for our garden and therefore not need to be of a certain height?

Thanks in advance,

Arakis777