Pme or earth rod

But it's surely not just about distances -
Well, the distance is surely relevant if large.

as I said, it's all about taking a PME earth outside of the equipotential zone.
Are we talking about tools or sheds?

If one built an extension which reached three-quarters of the way down one's garden, 'overtaking' sheds as it did, the entire inside of that extension would surely be included as part of the house's equipotential zone?
Yes, but what is the difference?

As far as I (my Devil's Advocate) am concerned, the tap or socket (into which a Class I appliance could theoretically be plugged) on the outside of the kitchen wall present similar risks (in the presence of a 'lost PME neutral') as does the electrical installation in a shed 40 metres away from the house. Do you agree?
Yes, but I am not considering lost neutrals.

I am saying that extending the zone to a shed or garage is no different than building an extension where the new kitchen is in the same place as the shed or garage was.
No one would think of TTing the kitchen or give a second thought to washing the kitchen floor.

As I said in the first reply "There is always an exceptional occurrence which will mean your installation could have been safer if done in a different way".
 
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Well, the distance is surely relevant if large.
In some respects (particularly VD and Zs), obviously, but I don't see it as being relevant to the theoretical risk associated with exporting a PME earth outside of its equipotential zone.
as I said, it's all about taking a PME earth outside of the equipotential zone.
Are we talking about tools or sheds?
As I've said (several times I think!), either or both (and also taps, metal waste pipes etc.). Tools are really only an issue if they are Class I, which would be pretty rare.
If one built an extension which reached three-quarters of the way down one's garden, 'overtaking' sheds as it did, the entire inside of that extension would surely be included as part of the house's equipotential zone?
Yes, but what is the difference?
The difference between what and what? Do you mean, say, the difference between the far end of a house extension and an outhouse at the same distance from the original house before extension? If so, the difference is that the outhouse will commonly contain, or be adjacent to, essentially unbondable paths to truth earth (e.g. potentially wet soil), whereas such is pretty rare within a house (or house extension).
Yes, but I am not considering lost neutrals.
What are you considering then? As I've been saying (on their behalf) 'lost neutrals' are surely the main concern of those worried about the export of PME earths. Once one has decided not to consdier that, the only other downsides ofexporting a PME earth are matters of convenience, aren't they (particularly the need to provide adequate bonding of any extraneous-c-ps), aren't they?
I am saying that extending the zone to a shed or garage is no different than building an extension where the new kitchen is in the same place as the shed or garage was. ... No one would think of TTing the kitchen or give a second thought to washing the kitchen floor.
Not usually, but if, like one of my daughters, one lived in an ancient cottage whose kitchen floor consisted of flagstones and quarry tiles, grouted with sand and laying directly on sand and soil, I suppose that you might at least consider the possibility. Even under 'normal wet conditions' (let alone recent months), the floor is often sodden with water welling up between the tiles/stones. That must be very rare in a house, so your comment is correct in relation to nearly all kitchens, but outhouses are not uncommonly similar to my daughter's kitchen (and often immediately adjacent to potentially wet soil).

So, as I think we're both saying, one needs to consider the particular situation. However if, as you've said above, you are prepared to discount the possibility of a 'lost neutral' (and I can't really argue, given the rarity of that, and even greater rarity of it presenting a significant risk), then I think you really only have 'convenience', rather than safety, issues to consider when decided whether or not to export a PME earth.

Kind Regards, John
 
Completely agree with john this is why I posted this question my only worry would be the loss of the neutral conductor but an outbuilding has no difference to an outside socket or an extension lead being taken out of the equipotential zone and no one bats an eyelid at that as you have mentioned it is a very rare occurrence and surely you could not be Blamed for the loss of a neutral conductor sacrificing the safety of your installation??
 
Completely agree with john this is why I posted this question my only worry would be the loss of the neutral conductor but an outbuilding has no difference to an outside socket or an extension lead being taken out of the equipotential zone and no one bats an eyelid at that as you have mentioned it is a very rare occurrence and surely you could not be Blamed for the loss of a neutral conductor sacrificing the safety of your installation??
 
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Completely agree with john this is why I posted this question my only worry would be the loss of the neutral conductor but an outbuilding has no difference to an outside socket or an extension lead being taken out of the equipotential zone and no one bats an eyelid at that as you have mentioned it is a very rare occurrence and surely you could not be Blamed for the loss of a neutral conductor sacrificing the safety of your installation??
I think that's a fair summary.

However, if the outhouse has extraneous-conductive-parts (e.g. water pipes or structural metal), they do need to be bonded, and it might be more convenient to do that with local TTing of the outhouse, rather than having to take an adequately-sized bonding conductor all the way back to the house's MET (which is what one would have to do if one were using the house's PME earth).

Kind Regards, John
 
The neutral of a supply is seldom at true ground potential. There is a voltage drop along the neutral from the sub station to the house. It will be close to zero if the load on the three phases in the cable are equal.

If there are two neutrals from different supply cables the voltage difference between them may be a couple of volts. This will mean the "earths" of the PME supplies are also ate different potentials. That couple of volts may not seem dangerous if they are connected together by a bond cable(s) and / or a service pipe. The voltage difference may be very small but so is the loop impedance of the neutrals. tA difference of one volt and a loop of 0.1 ohm impedance will put a 10 amp current through the bond cable ( and service pipes if involved ).
 
Yes on the particular job I was first talking about I am taking a 10mm2 saw cable to an outbuilding so wouldn't be a problem but I understand your point it would be about weighing up cost and time on how you approached it
 
The neutral of a supply is seldom at true ground potential. There is a voltage drop along the neutral from the sub station to the house. It will be close to zero if the load on the three phases in the cable are equal.
True - although, of course, statistically speaking, when single phases are used for providing separate domestic supplies, the phases are likely to be fairly well balanced for most of the time. Also, of course, in the case of PME, the nearest connection between neutral and true earth could be a lot closer than the substation.
If there are two neutrals from different supply cables the voltage difference between them may be a couple of volts. This will mean the "earths" of the PME supplies are also ate different potentials. That couple of volts may not seem dangerous if they are connected together by a bond cable(s) and / or a service pipe. The voltage difference may be very small but so is the loop impedance of the neutrals. tA difference of one volt and a loop of 0.1 ohm impedance will put a 10 amp current through the bond cable ( and service pipes if involved ).
No argument with the factual truth of all that - but, in the context of this thread, I'm not at all sure what "two neutrals from different supply cables" you have in mind.

Kind Regards, John
 
Have been thinking and the only other gain by using an earth rod at an outbuilding that had extraneous conductive parts eg a water pipe ran from the house in the event of the loss of a neutral conductor could the earth rod not be used as a protection against this and therefore you would have to make sure it was adequate to take the fault current of this occurrence ??
 
Have been thinking and the only other gain by using an earth rod at an outbuilding that had extraneous conductive parts eg a water pipe ran from the house ....
It is primarily extraneous-c-ps that come out of the ground, and therefore potentially can introduce 'true earth potential' into the outhouse which are the concern - which is why they have to be bonded to whatever earthing system is being used within the outhouse (so no dangerous potential differences can exist, should the outhouse's earthing system rise to appreciably above true earth potential).

If you are thinking of the situation of a metal water pipe coming (maybe above ground) all the way from house to outhouse, that would present almost the opposite risk. Since the pipe would almost certainly be connected, via bonding etc., to the PME earth at the house end, it would be at risk of introducing that PME 'earth' potential into the outhouse, even if the outhouse was not otherwise 'using' the PME earth.

.... in the event of the loss of a neutral conductor could the earth rod not be used as a protection against this and therefore you would have to make sure it was adequate to take the fault current of this occurrence ??
I'm not sure what situation you are talking about here. If you were using the PME earth in the outhouse (with adequate bonding of any extraneous-c-ps back to the house's MET), then there really would be nothing to protect against. On the other hand, if you were not using the PME earth in the outhouse (but a local TT rod instead), you would have deliberately avoided having the PME earth 'appearing' anywhere in the outhouse - so, again, there would be nothing to protect against.

Have I misunderstood you?

Kind Regards, John
 
Well what I'm saying is say someone runs a pipe from the house into the outbuilding that is already bonded to the house met via the pme system in the loss of a neutral the pipe in the outbuilding would be in the same situation as the rest of the house extraneous parts so if it was you couldn't bond to the earth rod as it entered the outbuilding ??
 
Well what I'm saying is say someone runs a pipe from the house into the outbuilding that is already bonded to the house met via the pme system in the loss of a neutral the pipe in the outbuilding would be in the same situation as the rest of the house extraneous parts so if it was you couldn't bond to the earth rod as it entered the outbuilding ??
I think you are postulating a pretty unusual situation - with an overground copper water pipe going from house to outhouse. However, if that were the situation, then you would effectively have to use the PME earth for the outhouse (the bonding in the outhouse would make it such, even if that hadn't been your intention), and connecting it also to a local TT electrode would achieve very little. If the metal water pipe travelled underground, then it would already effectively be its own earth rod - so, again little would be gained by adding another one.

Kind Regards, John
 
Well on a particular job I have an outbuilding detached from the house but probably about a 1m from house and it contains the gas meter which will be bonded to the house met so when I put a fuse board in there for external power I would have to use the one earth system from the house and not an earth rod !!
 
Well on a particular job I have an outbuilding detached from the house but probably about a 1m from house and it contains the gas meter which will be bonded to the house met so when I put a fuse board in there for external power I would have to use the one earth system from the house and not an earth rod !!
Quite. As I said, if you have a metal pipe which enters both buildings (hence has to be bonded to the earthing systems within both of them) then, regardless of whether one uses an earth rod at the outhouse, one would effectively be using the houses's PME earth. An earth rod would do not harm, but since it will be bonded to a PME-connected pipe, nor will it serve much of a purpose.

If the presence of the PME earth in the outhouse concerned you, you would have to insert an insulating section in the pipe and then TT the outhouse with a rod.

Kind Regards, John
 

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