Police rip off

[yaleguy3]

If you go to the shops and buy certain security products such as the yale certified safes or other high security locks you will find that on the packaging has the logo of 'Secure by Design' and the wording 'Official Police Initiative'

Here's a quote from their website-


' The SBD logo and title 'Police Preferred Specification' logo indicates that an organisation meets the quality standards set by Secured by Design. Usage of the logo is restricted to exclusively to those products that have successfully tested to SBD requirements. '

The testing requirements relate not just to BS or EN standards but equally to independent test houses applying their own test procedures.

The argument re me claiming to be approved rather than my products I wont go over again as I have made it clear that I used the logo in direct relation to products. The police had no problem with my placement of the logos on the website just the fact I had not paid £2000 to use it.

As I say this to me seems to be a rip off as the manufacturers of the product have already paid to have it approved and use the logo, when the product is shipped the logo is on it. If I put it in a shop window everyone would see the logo but If I even mention the standards it has passed on a website then I get asked for £2000.

The simple option for me would be to stop stocking items with features I cannot even advertise.

 

[SecuredbyDesign]

Advertisement of Secured by Design accredited products is not only authorised but also welcome by the company.

In principle we don't have any problems with re-sellers and distributors using the SBD logo in relation to any of our members' products.

Distributors, retailers and resellers of products that are not currently accredited under the Secured by Design scheme can reference a current member company’s membership but need to clearly identify the SBD accredited Member company for proper usage. Simply, this means non-members must include the actual member's name, member’s logo and product reference in their collateral.

 

[yaleguy3]

Advertisement of Secured by Design accredited products is not only authorised but also welcome by the company.

In principle we don't have any problems with re-sellers and distributors using the SBD logo in relation to any of our members' products.

Distributors, retailers and resellers of products that are not currently accredited under the Secured by Design scheme can reference a current member company’s membership but need to clearly identify the SBD accredited Member company for proper usage. Simply, this means non-members must include the actual member's name, member’s logo and product reference in their collateral.

This was never explained in those terms to me.
If that had been explained that in the beginning I would have happily complied and wouldn't even have thought of complaining.
instead - I was told I could display the logo if I became a member which would have cost me £2000.

Obviously I thought this was some kind of restrictive practice as the manufacturer of the product was a member of SBD and had the product I was promoting passed by SBD.
I thought I could reference that on my website in the same way I would mention it was British standard or EN approved or even Sold Secure who have no restrictions on their logo other than obvious copyright.
There was no attempt to claim I was the SBD organisation or any attempt to used the logo with non approved products. Therefore Copyright in its original sense was not impinged.
From my point of view using the SPD logo is in fact a benefit to the system as it advertises the scheme to the wider public and acts as free advertising for yourselves and will make people more aware the system exists and its benefits.
The main reason I was extremely unhappy to recieve the stop notice was because it had a threatening tone. I wasn't contacted and I didn't recieve the explanation you have supplied instead I was told that a snapshot of my website had been kept 'pending possible further action'
I was also told to resond to the letter failure to do so resulting in a complaint being lodged with trading standards for immediate action.
That last 'threat' really did annoy me.
Last year I contacted all my local neighbourhood watch groups using email addresses they had posted in the public domain specifically so people could contact them. I offered to present a demonstration of my services to the next neighbourhood watch meeting and give members a 5% discount.
One of the emails landed in the inbox of a Police officer who immediately told me not to contact anyone again to which I immediately agreed. Despite not contacting those emails again he had already reported me to trading standards for 'High Pressure Sales Techniques'
Trading standards couldn't understand the complaint as they couldn't see how my actions could have been construed as 'High pressure sales'.
They spoke in my defence but unfortunately they have said that despite no trading laws being broken it has to stay on the database.
You can imagine therefore how 'happy' I was to recieve another threat from the Police.

I recieved no advice on the lines of your post just the following -
'As your company is not a member of Secured by Design I am obliged to require you to cease (with immediate effect) to use our trademarks , to immediately withdraw any material that carried our trademarks and from your website'

It said nothing about non member companies being able to refer to SBP as long as they refered to the member company associated with the product.

It just said STOP or we will take action.

 

[Johnmelad502]

Sadly, you must have upset the only copper on duty that day who was actually doing any work. The other nine were obviously in the station tied up with ticking boxes so as to justify their need for overtime.

 

[yaleguy3]

To the member 'SecurebyDesign'

If you really are who you say you are then put what you have said into an official letter to me.

You will know who I am and where to send it.

If what you have said is true that non members can display your trademarks providing they clearly assosiate it with the member companies and products why wasn't I told this and why was I threatened when I hadn't therefore ostensibly broken any rules? Why didn't someone instead just explin any tweaking to my site they would like to see?
I used the SBD trademarks specifically with products passed by yourself and the manufacturers/members name was in the product description.
Why was I given only one option , ie to take everything down including the destruction at my own expense of any printed material.
Why was I told the only way to use the trademarks was to join and pay £2000?

Can you see why given previous hamfisted complaints to trading standards by the police against me why I would take the cynical view that I have.

We are almost in blackmail territory here , pay £2000 or we will report you to trading standards.

 

[D_Hailsham]

I sell safes and locks that are Police approved and registered.

And what do the police do to "approve" the products?

I had a quick look at the locks section on the website and saw that any lock which met the appropriate British Standard was approved, so the police "approval" is essentially meaningless.

I can't be bothered to check other products but would hazard a guess that the same applies; the product has to meet agreed standards, eg. BSI, BRE, BBA (British Board of Agrément) etc. What is almost certain is that the police do not test any of the products themselves.

 

[Mickymoody]

I sell safes and locks that are Police approved and registered.

And what do the police do to "approve" the products?

I had a quick look at the locks section on the website and saw that any lock which met the appropriate British Standard was approved, so the police "approval" is essentially meaningless.

I can't be bothered to check other products but would hazard a guess that the same applies; the product has to meet agreed standards, eg. BSI, BRE, BBA (British Board of Agrément) etc. What is almost certain is that the police do not test any of the products themselves.

I've been trying to get that across to the OP, but he has a bee in his bonnet about something or other, that he is wrong about, so best leave him alone. How will the poster automatically know your name and address Op, do the admin give this information away? or is one person within an organisation privvy to your personal details? Time to face reality.

 

[yaleguy3]

The point about the Police approval bit is that even though they are tested to certain standards they are then finally given an overal endorsement by the Police.
This then gives the public who may not know the intimate details of how things work the impression that they are better than another similar device even though they may both have passed exactly the same technical standard.
I you were to buy a lock not as yourself but as an imaginary member of the public would you buy one that was BS stamped or one that was BS stamped and also approved by the police.
There is some input by the SBD assesors it isn't simply passing any device that is BS or whatever. It has to have something extra to commend it in its anti theft capabilities. It has to have a holistic approach to a solution.
This is why I feel it is important to be able to offer these things to clients and why not being able to do so could lead to a commercial disadvantage.


The most annoying thing overall for me is that the Police in whatever guise have several times took action that has been discrimanatory against me on a commercial basis without justification.
I advertised on a local community website once and the local Police told the webmaster they didn't want my presence on the website.
The reasoning was that because the local safer neighbourhood team had a presence to engage with the community reporting crime news and asking for assistance in ingoing crimes it may appear to visitors that I had Police approval.
The webmaster spoke to me and I said I could not understand their position as there were many businesses who currently advertised on the site , shops , plumbers , decorators etc etc yet non of them had been approached in this manner.
I sent an email to the local Police protesting at their intrusion and stating I had paid for the advertisement just like anyone else and was just as entitled to be there as anyone else. I said it was unfair to single me out in this way and unjustified. I also mentioned that I had a 100% customer satisfaction record and offered to let them contact any of my clients for an opinion of my services.
This demonstration of 'defiance' didn't go down well with my local safer neighbourhood team who within six months reported me to trading standards for 'high pressure sales techniques' even though I didn't employ sales staff or use high pressure methods. It related to an email I sent to neighbourhood watch groups simply offering to come to their next meetings and demonstrate my products and also offer them a discount on my prices.
Trading standards agreed there was no reason for the compaint from the Police and could not understand why they had made it.
I knew why , petty officialdom and a bruised ego from someone in the Harrogate safer neighbourhood team.
This explains why I was so incensed to recieve a threat again from the police threatening action.
Particularly as the poster supposedly from SPD now says that I was actually allowed to do what I was doing.

I can't wait for common sense to kick in to the Police force again.
The most frustrating thing of all is that I am out there protecting people , upgrading locks , fitting safes and alarms. Going to burgled houses and making people feel secure again and offering advice and yet the police treat me like some common criminal or con merchant and go out of their way to make things akward for me.

ACPO the private limited company that sent me the threatening letter have ammased millions and come under scrutiny for wasting raxpayers cash used to fund them.
The conflict of interests within ACPO is inherently wrong and is bound to lead to abuse.

In fact thinking about it as ACPO is a private limited company I might take the letter I have recieved to trading standards and report them for harrasment and sending threatening letters.
In fact I am going to do that.

 

[yaleguy3]

The final irony.
Since the letter threatening me with a complaint to trading standards and possible further action also included details on how to join the scheme and the letter was sent by a private limited company the whole letter could be construed as a 'Hgh pressure sales' or the collection of money with menaces.
I am not quite sure how things fit together yet but I will discover how it works and make a complaint in the strongest terms to the appropriate body , ironically that may be the Police. Or possibly my local MP and of course trading standards.

Since I have alledgedly recieved advice from someone on this thread purporting to be from the organisation that sent the original threatening letter stating I did not actually need to be a member to display their logo as long as the logo was directly linked to a members product and their identity was shown then the contents of the letter take on a whole new meaning.

I think I have found the place to complain.

https://secure.consumerdirect.gov.uk/reportascam.aspx

 

[Mickymoody]

Why don't you chill out, and re-read what you are actually writing? You are going mental over a non issue. If the member is what they say, then why not have a PM chat with them, get head office address, work it out from there? If they are not, do some research. If that comes to nothing, simply report the 3rd party company to trading standards, they are very good.

It's like me a few weeks ago, my car is SORN, and parked on private land, some bloke comes knocking, I'm from the dvla, and we are going to tow your car, but I'll buy it off you before we do, then scarpers. I contact dvla, they contact their towing devision, know nothing of this, a scam, suggest I report it to police and trading standards. Look at it logically, and follow the means available to you, rather than ranting and raving. Take a step back, consult a close friend, re-evaluate what it is you are faced with.

 

[yaleguy3]

Mick , I can understand why you should feel that I am overreacting.
You probably think I am one biscuit short of a barrel or at the least have far too much anger inside me.

The truth is I have genuine reasons for these feelings and it is related to the frustration of any dealings I have had with the local Police.

last year I applied to join an organisation in Leeds. This organisation was an approved contractor for my local council.
Their remit is to introduce clients who were refered via the Police directly to tradesmen who had been vetted by CRB checks and checks to trading standards.

This essentialy meant that tradesmen and companies involved were getting direct assistance and recomendation from the police.

Basically if you are in security this is a loop you just had to be in or companies and traders who were approved would have a direct advantage in sourcing clients.

I have never been in trouble with the police in my life and my CRB check came back completely clear as expected.
However I was refused entry as my local police had reported me to trading standards for high pressure sales techniques. You will remember that I never employed any high pressure sales techniques and that trading standards themselves couldn't understand why the complaint was made. They even spoke directly to the organisation on my behalf to explain that I had never broken any trading laws but that strangely didn't suffice and I was still refused to join.

What you may find interesting to know is that this organisation is run by ex police officers.
Not only that but the member companies are nowhere as ethical as they claim to be.
I went to a ladies house to quote for some work and my quote came to £350. She then told me she had had a visit by this organisation who had quoted her £1500 for a similar job.
What you also need to know is that this council approved organisation take a 10% fee for any work you get through them based on the total job cost. Therefore if I had done the work they would have got £35 whereas they would have recieved £150 from the other approved contractor.

This whole set up does not give value for money to either the Council (If the client is a social tennant) or the poor person who sets on the approved contractor.

Not only that but they don't work safely.
I had to go and repair an alarm system I had installed to the home of a young lady who was a victim of violent domestic abuse.
The organisation had gone to her home to install some window bars and had set off the alarm I installed.
They couldn't silence it as they didn't know the code and had arrived when the tennant was out so they smashed the control panel and used a ladder to remove and disable the bell boxes. Neighbours said they couldn't stop the alarm and that every time they went in the house it went off.
I got a report from the young lady saying her alarm wasn't working and when I arrived sure enough they had ruined it. I replaced the broken parts but was amazed that an approved organisation had come to an abused persons home and left knowing the alarm had been made inoperable without telling anyone. The alarm appeared to work properly when setting etc but they had disconnected all the wires to the sounders both internally and externally. She didn't even know it wouldn't work when needed.
The tennant could not pay me for the repair so her housing manager sent my invoice to the company who broke the alarm.
Suprise surprise they never paid.

You can imagine my feelings when I am therefore threatened again with another report to trading standards particularly as it seems according to a poster on this thread that yet again I have done nothing wrong.

So do I want to make an official complaint.... you betcha.

Am I justified. certainly.

 

[Mickymoody]

I am sorry that you have had these experiences, I hope that you do complain, as all I can get from here is your side of the story, so cannot get a balanced view. Maybe get someone from trading standard to vouch for your claims also? Surely a domestic alarm has to reset itself after a certain amount of time? Sounds like a rough ride. Good Luck!

 

[yaleguy3]

I am sorry that you have had these experiences, I hope that you do complain, as all I can get from here is your side of the story, so cannot get a balanced view. Maybe get someone from trading standard to vouch for your claims also? Surely a domestic alarm has to reset itself after a certain amount of time? Sounds like a rough ride. Good Luck!

Thanks Mick.
Re the domestic alarm resetting. Indeed it is a legal requirement that an alarm stops before 20 minutes infact the alarm I installed was preset at a 10 minute cut off. However because contractors were moving around the house it was simply being reactivated again when they went passed another sensor. Instead of using their bonces and placing something over the sensors they instead cut the wires to the external sounders by removing the covers and first tried bashing the control panel which split the case and then pulled the internal speaker wire.
As mentioned they never told the occupant they had done this which to my mind was extremely unprofessional given the reason they were installing the window bars was because he violent partner was being released from jail. Bright move disabling the alarm not.

 

[Onetap]

Oh I was told that I could display them if I crossed some coppers greasy palm with TWO THOUSAND POUNDS!!...

What a rip off!

It's the APCO.

APCO is the Association of Chief Police Officers. It is not a trade association or as union, it is a limited liability company similar, probably, to your own.

http://www.acpo.police.uk/about.html

The members of APCO are Chief Constables, Deputies or Assistants. Their main income is from criminal record checks. If I wanted to coach a sport activity at a local school or youth group, I would need a criminal record check to confirm I wasn't a known criminal. I, or the school/grouop, would pay for this. APCO gets a profit from this payment. The proceeds are distributed to the shareholders/members. I'd think this in addition to their police salary.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...O-makes-18m-from-criminal-records-checks.html

 

[opps]

perhaps it was considered that your use of the logo was an attempt to make your site look like it was approved by the police, mind you though you should have received a "cease and desist" rather than a "give us a couple of grand"