power tool safety

[johnny2007]

A lot of people are scared of power tools, especially circular saws.
My advice that was passed to me by my father: before using a new tool, don't just read the instructions, STUDY THEM!
Once you know what the manufacturer bothered to print for you, you'd be half way away from accidents.
Then common sense...
I never understood how anyone can get injured with a circular saw: even the cheapest one from argos comes with a retractable steel guard, so the blade is never exposed.
Unless they rest the wood they're cutting on their legs...

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Then common sense...
I never understood how anyone can get injured with a circular saw: even the cheapest one from argos comes with a retractable steel guard, so the blade is never exposed.
Unless they rest the wood they're cutting on their legs...

Common sense? Is there really such a thing? Surely not.

Even the cheapest saw comes with a retractable steel (or plastic) guard, however, if you are daft enough to stand directly behind it (with your crown jewels in "line of sight" of the blade) and then decide to tackle a jump cut (where the blade guard is held open and the saw is plunged into the timber by pivoting on the leading edge of the base plate), because you've seen some Yank on YouTube demonstrating it (and it looked so easy) - the resulting DIY vasectomy (or sex change, even) may go some way to explaining why guys like me tend to think that depending on guards alone aren't the complete solution....

Or what about the situation where a knot breaks-up just as you are cutting a piece of timber and jams between the retractable guard and the fixed guard (rendering the retractable guard inoperable) and leaving the spinning blade exposed? I've actually had that second one once or twice over the years and it was kinda interesting...

The fact is that you need the safety devices, but you also need a wee bit of training. And by that I don't mean the average weekend warrior type of video on YouTube, either.

 

[johnny2007]

1. A circular saw is not a plunge saw and the instructions clearly state that. Remember, my dad said to study the instructions.
2. A knot jamming the guard: simply (and instinctively) release the power button and the circular saw should stop immediately.
Then of course if you have jammed the power button with tape prior to inserting the plug in the socket, clearly you haven't followed my dad's advice: STUDY THE INSTRUCTIONS!

That is what I consider common sense, anything else means natural selection.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

1. Jump cuts have been regarded as a perfectly acceptable way to make a plunge cut (and taught) if you are an experienced saw user (how else did you break-out t&g floor boards?). Plunge saws are a relatively recent invention (1980s, Germany, Holz-Her as it happens - but more widely only over the last 10 years or so in the UK)
2. Circular saws, other than a few professional grade saws and cordless saws DO NOT stop immediately the power button is released - many corded circular saws take time to spin down.
3. Every circular saw manufacturers instruction sheet I, personally, have had access to over the last 40-odd years has been deficient to a greater or lesser degree in instruction - they pretty much all make some major assumptions as to user competency - so studying the instructions will only get you part way there in terms of safety because they aren't sawing instruction manuals. BTW from recollection the brands are Black & Decker, Bosch, deWalt, Elu, Festool, Hilti, Holz-Her, Makita, Metabo and Stanley. I still have saws from a number of these firms on account of being both a tradesman an a collector and the lack of adequate instruction in the user handbooks is, frankly, stunning

 

[johnny2007]

You must have the well known instructions allergy whereby when you open a new tool the instructions magically disappear in the skip.
Every tool i bought in the past 20 years came with a comprehensive instructions mainly about h&s.
Surely they're not going to explain how to use a saw, but they make it clear what not to do with it.
I bought a mini plunge saw more than 20 years ago for cutting access holes in floors.
It can be done with a circular saw and a degree of carefulness, but i prefer to use the correct tool for the job and keep my jewels where they belong, between my legs

 

[Deleted member 174758]

So let me get this straight.... The manufacturers instruction manual tells a user everything he/she needs to ever know about using a circular saw safely and that if it isn't in the manual it shouldn't be done? And there was the cynic in me thinking that they were some sort of corporate get-out in the event of an accident. Tsk, tsk.

Basically those underpowered mini saws may be OK to carve-up laminate flooring or cut a small hole in 18mm chipboard, but you aren't seriously suggesting that one of those would be able to take-out, say, a 1-1/2 to 2in thick Victorian pine floor, nails and all, are you? Or a 25mm thick hardwood plywood floor along the joists (where it's screwed)? Or are you? (I'll wait while you inform me that you should remove ll fastenings first - often an impossible task on old buildings) From my own perspective they are unsafe on some tasks unless you realise that they have limited power - and an underpowered saw used on a task which is just too heavy for it (especially with a blunt blade) is the one which is going to have kick back. Personally, I also have my doubts about certain safety aspects of using any circular saw without a riving knife on what might be deemed unstable materials (i.e not man-made boards). Can't say I've seen anything in a manufacturers manual ever referring to that. And I actually do read them (well, I like a good laugh) - before they are filed in the health and safety box file (no, not the skip)

A mini saw isn't a full-size (say 190mm or larger) rip saw. It doesn't have the depth of cut or power to undertake a lot of tasks and BTW they are a modern invention. You talk as though they've been around for half a century..... When I was referring to plunge saws I was talking about what many people would think of as a plunge saw (Titan, Makita, Festool, etc) with automatic blade retraction. The first of those was probably the Holz-Her Mosquito type which was introduced in the mid to late 1970s (Festool's rail plunge saw came later - the original Holz-Her designs didn't run on rails). That type of saw was almost unknown in the UK until Festool came to woodworker's attention in the UK about 20 or 25 years ago. Makita, the first mass market manufacturer to take up the design, only produced a model in about 2007 or 2008 (the SP6000) with other firms copying the idea subsequently as the (Festool and Holz-Her) patents expired. Which is why I'm a little doubtful that you had a mini plunge saw 20 years ago. 10 years ago, possibly. Maybe you should ask your dad about it

 

[johnny2007]

I had that plunge saw for many years.
I bought it in italy and it was an unknown brand here, i think shepperton or sheppey.
It had a retractable blade and worked perfectly until i left it on a job and got nicked.
The manufacturer will tell you all about what not to do with the tool, so to be clear of any recourse and lawsuit.
Then they'll give you basic instructions on what to do with the tool.
If you do anything different, you're on your own.
They tell you not to use the circular saw as a plunge saw, i have seen it in manuals, in bolt and highlighted.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Then they'll give you basic instructions on what to do with the tool.
If you do anything different, you're on your own.

In other words the manuals are an incomplete set of instructions. Certainly a lot of manuals I've seen over the years have been of questionable value

They tell you not to use the circular saw as a plunge saw, i have seen it in manuals, in bolt and highlighted.

I'm still waiting for an actual example of this from a manual. Care to enlighten us?

 

[johnny2007]

Next time I'm in the workshop i'll take a picture of it.
Off injured at the moment, not by power tools
Or I'll have a look for online manuals later.
You could do this yourself, you know?
There's a great website they just opened called Google.
You can search for anything there, amazing!

 

[johnny2007]

In fact, after a quick search i see that instructions for circular saws accept the plunge cuts.
So i must have been mistaken.
I would still prefer a plunge saw though.

 

[catlad]

Its a lot more stable plunging with a normal circular saw if it is on a track. I have four circular saws and I don't feel the need to buy a dedicated plunge saw.

 

[EddieM]

As has been said, how do you cut a floorbard tongue without making a plunge cut? Just make sure your nads or other bits aren't in the way in case of a kick back.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

As has been said, how do you cut a floorbard tongue without making a plunge cut? Just make sure your nads or other bits aren't in the way in case of a kick back.

I could be trite and say you go off and get yourself a Hilti WSC85. OK, so they're eye-wateringly expensive, but they have bags of power and will seemingly cut through anything. It's the sort of saw which plunges but doesn't self-retract, so at the end of a cut you need to let the blade spin down before retracting. I use mine to tackle flooring cut-outs in old (listed) buildings where it has to cut through nails and all sorts. It's also useful for trimming and notching 3in thick joists and roof spars........

Before I had that, though, (for about 40 years) I made many, many plunge cuts using a big, dumb Makita 9in saw (and before that an even bigger, dumber Wolf 9in saw which I still have). It really isn't a safe technique for beginners and it is one of those techniques where a big, heavy, powerful saw is a real bonus - small, underpowered saws have a tendency to stall and kickback as do any saws with a blunt blade. Either way you still need to be extra cautious and NEVER sit or stand directly behind the saw, or tackle one of these cuts when tired. I was taught how to make it safer by pinning a piece of 2 x 1in slate lath or the like to the floor and using that as a stop to pivot down into the cut. Works a bit like training wheels. Just don't expect neat cuts without some practice!

I have four circular saws and I don't feel the need to buy a dedicated plunge saw.

It depends on what you are doing, I suppose. I've done my fair share of interior fit-out over the years and plunge saws with rails have speeded-up quite a few of the cuts you do in that sort of work (where there is a lot of sheet material to handle)

 

[conny]

Right, now that the 'dick measuring' is over, as my wife would say, can we just remind ourselves that this thread was started to discuss power tool safety and not performance.

Whether someone is a professional or a DIYer doesn't stop them from being injured/killed.
Accidents happen to both classes.
Accidents happen to all ages.
Accidents happen to both genders. (Don't start going on about transgenders, gays, etc etc. It's totally irrelevant and childish).
Accidents happen in the workplace and it happens in the home.
Accidents happen to the knowledgeable and the ignorant.
Accidents happen to the cautious and the complacent.

REGARDLESS WHAT TYPE OR BRAND OF TOOL YOU MAY BE USING!

So basically they can happen to anyone and everyone.
It does no harm to remind ourselves and others frequently.

 

[bobasd]

incidently, last week on some news channel i noticed two accounts, with pics, of re-sown back on hands.
the most recent accident happened to a 40yr old building worker who was cutting flooring with a circular saw.
the earlier accident was to a middle aged DIY'er with a chop saw - from what i understood his shirt cuff got caught in the blade.

building trade accident statistics show by a mile that its the more experienced on the job people - not the young inexperienced - who will have a power tool accident.
beginners have a some of safety training it seems but many older workers dont, and become over confident in their sometimes mickey mouse ways of using power tools.

Yet we have posters on here who , just to sound slick and do the "Look at me Ma, no hands" bit, put down any mention of safety, and even advertise their own foolish use of power tools.
Who cares when the NHS can find the millions to sort power tool accidents? & we all were told the money was going to the EU?
I'd bet money that anyone on here who puts safety down has probably never had a safety course or even a class - when you know everything why bother to learn - or even worse, why bother to pass on a little safety training to those who might be interested.

fwiw: we have this chap whose on here 24/7 (26,000 posts so far) and claims to work in the building trade (when he's got time?) and further claims to know about space exploration (spaced out?) - do you do volunteer work in the few midnight hours you have spare, helping the police catch crooks etc?

as far as i know, the monkey had violent objections on an earlier lift off - more about the probe they'd placed up his bottom rather than the actual flight.