Putting double socket in loft

[SimonH2]

It clearly is bad practice.

Citation ?

 

[JohnD]

It is obviously good practice.

 

[sparkwright]

In Winston's defence I would say it's a poor job to add a 13amp socket to a 5amp lighting circuit IF IT CAN BE AVOIDED.

In this case it can.

I can't really recall an occasion where I've been forced to do this, except on a lighting circuit where the new lights have come with 'wall warts'.

 

[JohnW2]

In Winston's defence I would say it's a poor job to add a 13amp socket to a 5amp lighting circuit IF IT CAN BE AVOIDED.

I would essentially agree, with a little qualification "...IF IT CAN BE reasonably [or 'reasonably conveniently'] AVOIDED - sisce, as you go on to say, about the only situation in which it literally cannot be 'avoided' is if lights on the circuit come with wallwarts (and, even then, some [presumably incluing Winston] might argue that they shouldn't then be powered from 6A 'lighting circuits').

Probably the most common situation is when someone wants to have something in the loft space (aerial amplifier, other AV/IT equipment etc.) which is powered by a wallwart, and with the only wiring in the loft space being lighting circuit(s). In that situation, my personal view would be that putting a 13A socket on the lighting circuit could not be 'reasonably conveniently avoided', and I would therefore do it - but I certainly would label the socket accordingly and/or take steps to prevent the wallwart being removed 'without the use of a tool' ... and here is one "I did earlier" ....

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

No doubt the regs will change one day. They are frequently updated.

OK.

But until they do, shut up.

 

[sparkwright]

I would essentially agree, with a little qualification "...IF IT CAN BE reasonably [or 'reasonably conveniently'] AVOIDED - sisce, as you go on to say, about the only situation in which it literally cannot be 'avoided' is if lights on the circuit come with wallwarts (and, even then, some [presumably incluing Winston] might argue that they shouldn't then be powered from 6A 'lighting circuits').

Probably the most common situation is when someone wants to have something in the loft space (aerial amplifier, other AV/IT equipment etc.) which is powered by a wallwart, and with the only wiring in the loft space being lighting circuit(s). In that situation, my personal view would be that putting a 13A socket on the lighting circuit could not be 'reasonably conveniently avoided', and I would therefore do it - but I certainly would label the socket accordingly and/or take steps to prevent the wallwart being removed 'without the use of a tool' ... and here is one "I did earlier" ....

View attachment 153548

Kind Regards, John

I think this is all very reasonable.

I would have to say it's lazy to add a 13amp socket to a light circuit where it could be put on a larger or 'more usual' circuit with little or even quite a bit of effort.

It's certainly a ****ing bastard **** when in the future one is trying to fit a socket or FCU for an electric fire or a white good, only to find the nearest socket is fed with 1.0 mm2 T+E from a lighting circuit.

Or similar.

 

[sparkwright]

Hmmm. Just testing the swear word blocking facility.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

There are ways round it.

 

[JohnW2]

It's certainly a ****ing bastard **** when in the future one is trying to fit a socket or FCU for an electric fire or a white good, only to find the nearest socket is fed with 1.0 mm2 T+E from a lighting circuit.

That would result in a brief moment of disappointment/frustration ("Ah, I've found a suitable place from which to feed the fire/white good/whatever ... oh no, I haven't ", but that's about all. If the nearby socket was on a lighting circuit, that almost certainly means that there are no higher-rated circuits in the vicinity - which is just a fact of life. You would presumably also regard it as being "a ****ing bastard ****" if you found that the nearest socket was an unfused spur from a ring final - but, again, that would just be a fact.

Let's face it, if one installed a 13A socket for one's low-powered wallwart (in loft or wherever) 'properly', it very likely that one would spur off a ring final on the floor below - so, again, no use to you for your fire or white good supply.

Kind Regards, John

 

[sparkwright]

Yes, but there would be some, albeit not very satisfactory, options after discovering the donor socket from the 32amp ring is a spur. Such as adding a 13 amp FCU before the two sockets.

Not good if other high power stuff is to be used in the original socket, but there you go.

There's even a chance that original socket could be got rid of, and the cable simply extended.

But I'm going off track here, and future proofing and the like isn't a reg as such.

All in all, I think most would agree it's best just to wire things as you would expect to find them, without deviating too much from the norm.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Yes, but there would be some, albeit not very satisfactory, options after discovering the donor socket from the 32amp ring is a spur. Such as adding a 13 amp FCU before the two sockets.

Such is life.

Not good if other high power stuff is to be used in the original socket, but there you go.

No different than you can't plug in a cooker.

There's even a chance that original socket could be got rid of, and the cable simply extended.

There are a miriad of chances.

But I'm going off track here, and future proofing and the like isn't a reg as such.

How could it possibly be?

All in all, I think most would agree it's best just to wire things as you would expect to find them, without deviating too much from the norm.

Unless of course if everyone had the same when it would become the norm.

Like Winston, you don't like the idea but that doesn't really matter, does it?

 

[JohnW2]

All in all, I think most would agree it's best just to wire things as you would expect to find them, without deviating too much from the norm.

Yes, I'm sure that most people would agree that that is the 'best' approach, and I cannot imagine that anyone would feed a BS1363 socket from a 'lighting circuit' if it would be just as easy to feed it from a sockets circuit. However, I also think that many would be comfortable connecting the sort of 'dedicated' socket we are talking about (for a very small load) to a 'lighting circuit' if feeding it from a sockets circuit would involve a lot more effort/time/materials/cost/whatever.

It's worth remembering that, in explicitly including BS1363 sockets in the list of things that may ('permitted') be supplied by a 'lighting circuit', the authors of BS7671 must have had in mind at least some situations (quite possibly including those we are discussing) in which they would regard it as a reasonable and acceptable practice.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

There's even a chance that original socket could be got rid of, and the cable simply extended.

AS EFLI has said, there are a myriad of possibilities.

In practice, if there is a nearby (but not quite 'close enough') 13A socket, the most obvious approach (requiring no 'electrical work' at all) would probably be to plug in an extension lead - but I'm not sure that that would necessarily be the 'best' (permanent) solution, either!

Kind Regards, John

 

[Monkey789]

Ok, so I’ve wired the socket into a ceiling rose as suggested.

I’ve clearly done something wrong. It works fine, but only when I turn the light on. Have I used the switched live terminal? I take it I can have it powered all the time without having to turn the light on!

The picture is the ceiling rose before I began.

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

And after?...

And yes you've used the switched live.