Radiator under window sill

One further (I hesitate to dare say 'final'!) question ...

In that bay, I have 1,960 mm horizonal space ('between walls') available, so an 1,800 mm rad (with valves) ought to just about fit. However, the TRV will then be 'tucked into the corner', very close to the reveal of the bay,and probably beneath the sill (about 600 mm above TRV). In that situation, will the TRV 'work' satisfactorily?
 
Sponsored Links
TRVs only operate on the generality of the temperature around them.

In that case, with 100mm gap at the top, the heat should be able to get out well at the top and so the temperature around the valve will be pretty much that of the lower part of the room.

So I do not forsee any significant problem.
 
TRVs only operate on the generality of the temperature around them.
Thanks. That was my slight concern - it felt as if the TRV might be trapped within its own little 'microclimate', very close to the rad, in that corner!
In that case, with 100mm gap at the top, the heat should be able to get out well at the top and so the temperature around the valve will be pretty much that of the lower part of the room. So I do not forsee any significant problem.
Thanks for the reassurance!

I have to say that I've always wondered how/why TRVs seem to work as well as they do, because they are sensing the temp so close to the radiator. If one puts one's hand in the vicinity of the TRV (i.e. very close to the rad), it feels much hotter than 'the room' in general. However, I presme that's an unnecessary concern, since they do seem to work reasonably well ;)

Kind Regards, John
 
Having calculated a heat loss for room, adjust for dT of system which will be average rad temp ie flow+return/2 minus room temp, this obviously varies subject to the type of heat source and the level of efficiency at which you want the design to operate (lower is ALWAYS better).

The dT50 rating is a hangover from pre-condensing boilers that needed high return temps to prevent condensing and then corrosion at boiler return.
Since condensing boilers came in typical design would be ( (75+55)/2 )-21 = 44. correction factor for a dT50 rating would be 0.846
Current practice would be ((55-35)/2)-21 = 24 correction factor 0.383.

The new flow temps are to make rad systems heat pump ready but make rads impractically large in most domestic premises so you will find many ignore the regs!!
The correction factor falls off a little faster than Pro-rata and can be looked up on internet lists or calculated (actual dT/spec sheet dT)^1.3

Having corrected for spec sheet to operating dT you would apply a correction factor for the method of water connection - in domestic work connections are invariably Bottom Opposite Ends or BOE which meean rad derated by 0.943

Any significant cill or shelf over rad would usually attract a derate factor of 0.95 and a rad cabinet 0.7

The final adjustment would be applied on basis of operation - if the heating is going to be regularly turned off with energy saving controls and then required to bring a room back to temperature in a relatively short period then an output uplift would be required somewhere from 10-20% for resonably well insulated property reheating in half hour or so.

Rads are traditionally sited under a window because glazed areas will usually have significantly greater heat loss than walls and the cold air against the glass will create a downdraught that can then be counteracted by the rad and the resultant turbulent mixing will lessen the convection current effects already discussed in this thread.
More uncharitably the space under the window gives a rad size for those that can't manage the above process ;)

Trv sensor are best mounted horizontally where possible for exactly the reasons you have mentioned but as they are rarely calibrated in actual temperatures any offset caused by local 'microclimate' can just be adjusted for with an appropriate setting.
 
Sponsored Links
Thanks for your interest and your detailed and very interesting explanations. I've re-arranged the quotes of your message a bit to facilitate this reply! ...
The dT50 rating is a hangover from pre-condensing boilers that needed high return temps to prevent condensing and then corrosion at boiler return.
Since condensing boilers came in typical design would be ( (75+55)/2 )-21 = 44. correction factor for a dT50 rating would be 0.846
Current practice would be ((55-35)/2)-21 = 24 correction factor 0.383.
.... The correction factor falls off a little faster than Pro-rata and can be looked up on internet lists or calculated (actual dT/spec sheet dT)^1.3
Fair enough, and thanks for answering what was going to be my next question (how to determine that 'correction factor').

The examples you quote assume a temp loss in the rad (flow-return) of 20 C, for differing flow temps. Why is that,and is it necessarily the case in practice? In fact, one presumably can change dT by altering flow rate (hence altering temp drop in the rad) without changing flow temp, can't one?
* Having calculated a heat loss for room, adjust for dT of system which will be average rad temp ie flow+return/2 minus room temp, this obviously varies subject to the type of heat source and the level of efficiency at which you want the design to operate (lower is ALWAYS better).
* Having corrected for spec sheet to operating dT you would apply a correction factor for the method of water connection - in domestic work connections are invariably Bottom Opposite Ends or BOE which meean rad derated by 0.943
* Any significant cill or shelf over rad would usually attract a derate factor of 0.95 and a rad cabinet 0.7
* The final adjustment would be applied on basis of operation - if the heating is going to be regularly turned off with energy saving controls and then required to bring a room back to temperature in a relatively short period then an output uplift would be required somewhere from 10-20% for resonably well insulated property reheating in half hour or so.
Having estimated heat lost as accurately as one can, and then applied all of those adjustments is all very well (and sounds like an attempt at 'pretty good science') but then seems to be completely overshadowed/undermined by ....
Having calculated a heat loss for room, adjust for dT of system .... <for> the type of heat source and the level of efficiency at which you want the design to operate
AND

The new flow temps are to make rad systems heat pump ready but make rads impractically large in most domestic premises so you will find many ignore the regs!!
It therefore seems that (in domestic settings) having attempted to undertake a series of fairly accurate calculations and adjustments thereto, one then applies an essentially arbitrary (and potentially massive) 'alteration' dependent upon what flow temp/dT one 'wants' and what is 'practical'. You refer to the 'many who ignore the regs' somewhat pejoratively, but if to do otherwise would be impractical (or just unaffordable), then it would be impractical, and therefore would/could not be done.

So this is where a science seems to turn into more of an art - with the bottom line that, regardless of all the calculations and adjustments (and 'regs'), the rads which are installed will often simply be 'the rads that will fit' (i.e. 'practical'). Is that not the case?

.... if the heating is going to be regularly turned off with energy saving controls and then required to bring a room back to temperature in a relatively short period then an output uplift would be required somewhere from 10-20% for resonably well insulated property reheating in half hour or so.
It's not really something which concerns me very much, but the 'warming up' process needs somewhat more sophisticated modelling, and probably happens faster than some would imagine - because,if one starts heating a room from cold, the temp difference across walls/floors/ceilings etc. (and hence heat loss) is initially pretty (or very) small. Our usual heat loss calculations refer to the steady state after 'warming up', such that 'heat loss' of a room is a constant. However,during the warming up phase, heat loss starts low and then gradually increases as the room warms up.
Rads are traditionally sited under a window because glazed areas will usually have significantly greater heat loss than walls and the cold air against the glass will create a downdraught that can then be counteracted by the rad and the resultant turbulent mixing will lessen the convection current effects already discussed in this thread. ....
Indeed, and ...
More uncharitably the space under the window gives a rad size for those that can't manage the above process ;)
Not really 'uncharitable', since it's an undeniable truth that such is what many have done (and probably still do). As I've said,it's certainly what I've done in the (fairly distant) past,and it always seems to have resulted in a system which worked reasonably well, if not necessarily very efficient! Furthermore, as above, it seems that this is probably essentially what very often still happens in domestic settings - since the science/calculations are likely to call for impractically large radiators , such that what gets installed is "what will fit" :)
Trv sensor are best mounted horizontally where possible for exactly the reasons you have mentioned ...
I can see that would help a bit to address the issue I mentioned, but I have very rarely seen it done, and cannot recall ever having seen any TRVs for sale that would enable that to be done directly - since, whether 'straight', 'angled' or 'corner', the sensor head seems to invariably be at right angles to the spigot that goes into the rad. If one wanted a horizontal sensor, it therefore looks as if one would have to improvise with a 'straight' TRV and a M/F 1/2" elbow - which would be a little messy (and a little'wide') ... or am I missing something?
... but as they are rarely calibrated in actual temperatures any offset caused by local 'microclimate' can just be adjusted for with an appropriate setting.
You speak as if there is just a fixed 'offset' between the temp seen by the sensor and the temp of the room, but is it really that simple? My 'concern' was that, for example, when a radiator is first turned on in a very cold room, the temp 'seen by' the sensor (which is 'up close to the radiator' will presumably initially be a lot higher than the actual temp of the room air in general (as a result of radiation, if not also some convection) but that difference between sensor temp and general room-air-temp will gradually decrease as the room warms up?. However, as I've said, they seem to work fairly well, so my concerns are presumably largely unwarranted!

Kind Regards, John
 
The examples you quote assume a temp loss in the rad (flow-return) of 20 C, for differing flow temps. Why is that,and is it necessarily the case in practice? In fact, one presumably can change dT by altering flow rate (hence altering temp drop in the rad) without changing flow temp, can't one?
The dT across the system will relate to the type of heat generator you are using. I have assumed (maybe incorrectly) that 20 years after madation you are using a condensing boiler (gas or oil) The controls of which will be attempting to maintain dT20 because that is what the manufacturer will have designed for when sizing all the components.
When small bore wet CH was developed in the 50's by the NCB design temps would typically be 180F flow with a dT20F drop (82C/11C drop), 180F being a sufficient margin of safety for the thermostat tech of the day to prevent boiling and 20F drop being realistic for the single pipe circulation systems and the return temperature being high enough to prevent condensation corrosion of cast iron heat exchangers without more sophisticated back end protection.
With the introduction and subsequent mandation of condensing boilers as energy efficiency moved up the agenda these typical temperatures were altered. but with a nod back to the old paradigm so as to keep existing pipework and emitter systems viable.
75/55 flow return became the norm. 75 not being so very much less than the 80 that the existing rad systems were designed for but spreading the dT so as to achieve a return temperature low enough to gain some latent heat through condensation of flue gases (full condensation does not happen until return temps are iro 30C) Additionally dT20 results in a halving of water flow rate (cf dT11), as you allude to, and therefore a reduction in pump energy requirements (CH pump circulators being a significant fraction of home energy use).
Does it happen in practise? Well it can and it should but...... Balancing a system is a tedious and time consuming task, made VERY much more difficult by 'sizing rads by window cill' rather than heat loss. The introduction of modern electronics to circulators (Grundfos Alpha3 etc) and pressure independent control valves in domestic rad valve form are making the job easier, as they remove some element of interaction between the adjustment of different elements.
The establishment of correct flow and dT is ESSENTIAL to achieving full efficiency and performance from a given design and the common lack is what is chiefly responsible for the performance gap between design/regulatory and reality, where rules of thumb plus a bit for luck, cos that was what my old gaffer said etc etc are more common.

Heat pumps (that the government would like us all to move to) are a totally different kettle of fish to boilers. Thermodynamically they operate in a completely different envelope to fossil fuel boilers and this means the systems that accompany them need to be specced with a completely different starting point. Heat pumps operate well in a very narrow band of conditions typically with a dT5C and commensurately higher flow rates (larger pipe work often needed)
Additionally in order to maintain an acceptable efficiency (COP) flow temperatures need to be substantially lower resulting in a derating of existing rads by two to three times.
Short cycling is not great for any heat generator but is disastrous for a heat pump where it will decimate the efficiency achieved.
Heat pumps do are not a good fit with highly zoned systems, it is readily possible to achieve a situation where turning off/down the heat in one zone with resultant increased heat loss from heated area into unheated causes the HP controls to raise flow temp into heated zone with a resultant drop in COP that means you use more energy to heat less rooms - crazy but true!!
These are SOME of the issues, that mean HP's are rarely a drop in replacement for a boiler, the cost and disruption of the consequential changes to an existing wet system are one of the reasons that HP's are not gaining the traction that might be desirable.
It therefore seems that (in domestic settings) having attempted to undertake a series of fairly accurate calculations and adjustments thereto, one then applies an essentially arbitrary (and potentially massive) 'alteration' dependent upon what flow temp/dT one 'wants' and what is 'practical'. You refer to the 'many who ignore the regs' somewhat pejoratively, but if to do otherwise would be impractical (or just unaffordable), then it would be impractical, and therefore would/could not be done.
While you are not wrong with regard to the result, this just further illustrates my points above that you cannot specify/design a single element (say a replacement rad) in isolation, you need to understand the design rational behind the existing equipment and specc the new equipment on the same basis. Where this cannot be practically achieved (as is often the case with change to HP) you have to start again from scratch - enter cost and disruption, prohibitive to most.:(
Situation exacerbated by the high chance that the tradesperson you engage will be unaware of any of these issues (or the many others that might be in play).
It's not really something which concerns me very much, but the 'warming up' process needs somewhat more sophisticated modelling,
Absolutely. Something that might be done for a commercial property where the savings might have some chance of offsetting the design costs, in domestic work you are reliant on a best guess which requires both the installer and the client to be aware of the factor.
cannot recall ever having seen any TRVs for sale that would enable that to be done directly - since, whether 'straight', 'angled' or 'corner', the sensor head seems to invariably be at right angles to the spigot that goes into the rad. If one wanted a ho
Most angle TRVs on sale these days have 15mm compression fittings on both ends which enable the sensor to be mounted vertical or horizontal just by rotating the body to the appropriate orientation.
TBOE is the most efficient connection pattern and then TRV head can be both above and the side of the rad, however not generally domestically acceptable. TRV's are such a crude control that the issues of offset, as discussed, are not real. TRV's are really just temperature limiters that are used to compensate for poor (over)sizing of rads and and their response and repeatability is, in any case, very dependant on cost/quality.
 

DIYnot Local

Staff member

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.


Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

 
Back
Top