If all is safe. Yes.
Or they may recommend improvements which is quoted for separately
Rcbo ?? Outside of CU.
- Thread starter joesoap13
- Start date
If all is safe. Yes.
Or they may recommend improvements which is quoted for separately
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In that case then I will get a Eicp qualified electrician in when covid allows and let them check for faults and safety. Then ask. Them and others for cost to upgrade CU.to what you both recommended.
As long as It passes without a rccb in CU.
That can be done at leisure.
The last electrician led. Me to believe the rich being fitted was paramount to safety certificate being issued.
I have a feeling his work is likely to be at fault, he was so full of self praise, which is no recommendation.
I hope I am wrong !
That,s why I wondered at giving him a chance at fixing the faults, but not now.some could be behind new expensive tilework.
I know the cert is like an mot, only a snapshot,safe at that time, it is supposed to be able to be used for 10 years if correct .?
Cheers
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The EIC (electrical installation certificate) or Minor Works Certificate has to be completed at end of any electrical work but the person over seeing the work i.e. in control so master could include an apprentices work, but he has to be in control so he could not sign for work you have done, and the EICR (electrical installation condition report) is often used to replace the EIC when getting a completion certificate from LABC (local authority building control) but the person doing it is commissioned by them so they can say how rigorous the inspection needs to be. The LABC can issue a completion certificate on the strength of an EICR but there not forced to, and unless an emergency they should be informed (and fees paid, in Wales starts at £100 plus vat for first £2000 worth of work) before the work starts. Any one can issue an EIC, EICR, or Minor Works, but if a rental property in England then there are extra requirements for the EICR to be able to be used to satisfy the new law. But in theory there is nothing stopping anyone doing any electrical work which they are capable of doing on a domestic property and getting the required paperwork, even if not really an electrician, the only problem is it is uneconomical to pay the LABC fees for every job.
So an electrician does not need to be a scheme member, and it clearly costs to be a scheme member, so if doing mainly commercial or industrial it would not be worth the annual fees to be a scheme member, the annual fee is not cheap, and although in Wales it would be hard to do much electrical work on domestic without being a scheme member, in England there is a lot of work that does not require registering so it may simply not be worth a sole trader paying the annual fees, a good electrician can likely find enough commercial and industrial work not to need to do domestic. Big difference is commercial and industrial is a lot of repeat work, so unless good you would run out of work quite fast, where with domestic you often only work for some one once, and there are many more unsuspecting customers so a bad electrician could without the Part P work for years without his poor reputation catching up with him, so the schemes are designed to ensure poor electricians can't practice for long. Not that it works, but that was the idea.
So a scheme member can get a compliance certificate issued far cheaper than a non scheme member can get a completion certificate issued, the problem is it is not up to the electrician to inform the LABC that is up to the owner, same applies for building work, so if he does a safe job, and issues a EIC or Minor works at end of job, he has not broken any laws and long as he does not claim to be a scheme member, there is no permit to works system so if you tell him you have registered the work, he just takes your word for it, so complaining he has not had a compliance or completion certificate issued get you no where, as all he has to say is he thought you had registered the work, and unless he admits he knew the work had not been registered there is very little you can do. However since he knows you would need the EIC if he does not issue one, then it is really an admission of guilt. But BS 7671 is not law, so there is nothing to force him to issue one, except by not issuing one he is admitting he knew the work had not been registered.
There is one extra quirk to this, to be a scheme member you have to agree to follow BS 7671 so for scheme members BS 7671 is law. So if I wanted to wire a house to German standards I would have to do it through LABC as the schemes would not permit it.
So returning to the EICR this is some ones personal option as to the condition of the installation, unlike your MOT he does not have a rule book he must follow, there are loads of guides, but unless a scheme member, he does not need to follow them, for a rented domestic property in England he must have insurance and the government report states they expect at least 10 years in the Electrical trade, but this has not been written into the law, there was going to be a government check list that he had to satisfy, but I have failed to find one, I can find loads issued by private bodies, but not a government one. But unless rented anyone can complete an EICR, and there was a report on the electrical condition when I got my house buyer report, although rather poor.
Within the trade the C&G 2391 was considered to show a person was qualified to make the report, but what matters is that some insurer is willing to issue professional indemnity insurance to cover the guy doing the report. If you look at any forum there are arguments as to what should get a C2 and C3 galore, and for a non rental it does not really matter, all you want to know is what work needs doing, and what work should be considered needed if extras are added to the installation. If not rental then it does not matter how many C2's you can ignore them if you want.
As to if worth having a formal EICR doing not so sure, any good electrician will test anyway before starting to fit a consumer unit, last thing he wants is at end of the job, the RCD will not hold in and you refusing to pay him until it does, so he wants to know problems before he starts, fitting an all RCBO consumer unit then only faulty circuits would not work, so he may get away with that, but with a common RCD for many circuits a neutral - earth fault on one circuit could stop all good circuits being used. So a good electrician will do a number of tests before starting, including looking for borrowed neutrals, it is not as good as a full EICR but last thing you want is to pay twice, so if you want the report best would be to get the electrician to do both fitting of consumer unit and writing out an EICR as well as the EIC at end of job, and of course a completion or compliance certificate, and to issue them at a reasonable cost he would need to be a scheme member. And you want any EICR to be done on scheme members paperwork, so should you sell the house, the buyer knows the person doing the inspections was both qualified and insured to do the work. And because controlled by the scheme provider he should be following their guide lines as to what has a C1, C2, C3 or F1 coding.
So an electrician does not need to be a scheme member, and it clearly costs to be a scheme member, so if doing mainly commercial or industrial it would not be worth the annual fees to be a scheme member, the annual fee is not cheap, and although in Wales it would be hard to do much electrical work on domestic without being a scheme member, in England there is a lot of work that does not require registering so it may simply not be worth a sole trader paying the annual fees, a good electrician can likely find enough commercial and industrial work not to need to do domestic. Big difference is commercial and industrial is a lot of repeat work, so unless good you would run out of work quite fast, where with domestic you often only work for some one once, and there are many more unsuspecting customers so a bad electrician could without the Part P work for years without his poor reputation catching up with him, so the schemes are designed to ensure poor electricians can't practice for long. Not that it works, but that was the idea.
So a scheme member can get a compliance certificate issued far cheaper than a non scheme member can get a completion certificate issued, the problem is it is not up to the electrician to inform the LABC that is up to the owner, same applies for building work, so if he does a safe job, and issues a EIC or Minor works at end of job, he has not broken any laws and long as he does not claim to be a scheme member, there is no permit to works system so if you tell him you have registered the work, he just takes your word for it, so complaining he has not had a compliance or completion certificate issued get you no where, as all he has to say is he thought you had registered the work, and unless he admits he knew the work had not been registered there is very little you can do. However since he knows you would need the EIC if he does not issue one, then it is really an admission of guilt. But BS 7671 is not law, so there is nothing to force him to issue one, except by not issuing one he is admitting he knew the work had not been registered.
There is one extra quirk to this, to be a scheme member you have to agree to follow BS 7671 so for scheme members BS 7671 is law. So if I wanted to wire a house to German standards I would have to do it through LABC as the schemes would not permit it.
So returning to the EICR this is some ones personal option as to the condition of the installation, unlike your MOT he does not have a rule book he must follow, there are loads of guides, but unless a scheme member, he does not need to follow them, for a rented domestic property in England he must have insurance and the government report states they expect at least 10 years in the Electrical trade, but this has not been written into the law, there was going to be a government check list that he had to satisfy, but I have failed to find one, I can find loads issued by private bodies, but not a government one. But unless rented anyone can complete an EICR, and there was a report on the electrical condition when I got my house buyer report, although rather poor.
Within the trade the C&G 2391 was considered to show a person was qualified to make the report, but what matters is that some insurer is willing to issue professional indemnity insurance to cover the guy doing the report. If you look at any forum there are arguments as to what should get a C2 and C3 galore, and for a non rental it does not really matter, all you want to know is what work needs doing, and what work should be considered needed if extras are added to the installation. If not rental then it does not matter how many C2's you can ignore them if you want.
As to if worth having a formal EICR doing not so sure, any good electrician will test anyway before starting to fit a consumer unit, last thing he wants is at end of the job, the RCD will not hold in and you refusing to pay him until it does, so he wants to know problems before he starts, fitting an all RCBO consumer unit then only faulty circuits would not work, so he may get away with that, but with a common RCD for many circuits a neutral - earth fault on one circuit could stop all good circuits being used. So a good electrician will do a number of tests before starting, including looking for borrowed neutrals, it is not as good as a full EICR but last thing you want is to pay twice, so if you want the report best would be to get the electrician to do both fitting of consumer unit and writing out an EICR as well as the EIC at end of job, and of course a completion or compliance certificate, and to issue them at a reasonable cost he would need to be a scheme member. And you want any EICR to be done on scheme members paperwork, so should you sell the house, the buyer knows the person doing the inspections was both qualified and insured to do the work. And because controlled by the scheme provider he should be following their guide lines as to what has a C1, C2, C3 or F1 coding.
Hi Ericmark.
Most of that went straight over my head, not hard to do as I’m not an electrician, but can do most minor electrical things myself, whether legal or not, that’s for others to judge.
Regarding the electrician I had, he was recommended, the kitchen installer uses him regularly, so I assumed he was registered and I would get a cert at the end of his work.
However, as soon as he walked in the door he was finding faults, the fuses, no grommet where wires enter CU, no rccb which I had never heard of, and he didn’t explain why I needed one.
He tried to say why it was nescesary, but without going into detail, assumed I was thick!
All he said, he could not force me to do anything, just point out the faults.
That’s why I said, do the job and all that entails so he would issue a cert at the end.
I went and got mcb’s, he told me what colours, only to find green was not used any more , for the job.
That was a good start, my mind rang alarm bells then.
The suppliers and another electrician said to put a red b32, and I fitted that, he didn’t say anything.
Other stuff he did, rang alarm bells, I like to know what’s going on, so asked things.
He did quite a lot, fitted new oven, hob, extractor fan, fridge, new plugs,under lights, ceiling spots, etc.
When he came to fit the rccb outside the box, all he said was, both circuits faulty, tripping, so took rccb out.
I expected him, asked him to try and rectify the faults and fit the rccb.
He gave me the impression he didn’t ‘t want the job, made all excuses as to not to do it, and paid him, then left.
I would have thought he would have had a moral duty to find the faults, when he said they existed, and fix them, he was on day rate, but, he just left.
The faults have concerned me since, hence on here.
I don’t know how safe my house is.
I now find out he could have tried to find the faults without fitting a rccb, and supplied a EICR, which I wanted.what’s the point of doing all that work without one, he had lights and sockets off, so he could have tested them
I didn’t see him test anything.
I am where I am, so I am wary of who I employ in future, but reading your post, it seems, you pays your money , you takes your chance.
Thanks for your reply.
I’m no wiser knowing it
Most of that went straight over my head, not hard to do as I’m not an electrician, but can do most minor electrical things myself, whether legal or not, that’s for others to judge.
Regarding the electrician I had, he was recommended, the kitchen installer uses him regularly, so I assumed he was registered and I would get a cert at the end of his work.
However, as soon as he walked in the door he was finding faults, the fuses, no grommet where wires enter CU, no rccb which I had never heard of, and he didn’t explain why I needed one.
He tried to say why it was nescesary, but without going into detail, assumed I was thick!
All he said, he could not force me to do anything, just point out the faults.
That’s why I said, do the job and all that entails so he would issue a cert at the end.
I went and got mcb’s, he told me what colours, only to find green was not used any more , for the job.
That was a good start, my mind rang alarm bells then.
The suppliers and another electrician said to put a red b32, and I fitted that, he didn’t say anything.
Other stuff he did, rang alarm bells, I like to know what’s going on, so asked things.
He did quite a lot, fitted new oven, hob, extractor fan, fridge, new plugs,under lights, ceiling spots, etc.
When he came to fit the rccb outside the box, all he said was, both circuits faulty, tripping, so took rccb out.
I expected him, asked him to try and rectify the faults and fit the rccb.
He gave me the impression he didn’t ‘t want the job, made all excuses as to not to do it, and paid him, then left.
I would have thought he would have had a moral duty to find the faults, when he said they existed, and fix them, he was on day rate, but, he just left.
The faults have concerned me since, hence on here.
I don’t know how safe my house is.
I now find out he could have tried to find the faults without fitting a rccb, and supplied a EICR, which I wanted.what’s the point of doing all that work without one, he had lights and sockets off, so he could have tested them
I didn’t see him test anything.
I am where I am, so I am wary of who I employ in future, but reading your post, it seems, you pays your money , you takes your chance.
Thanks for your reply.
I’m no wiser knowing it
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I have read EICR or PIR as they were called, full of faults, and to be frank useless, as not enough info to work out if a fault I had just not found, or some attempt to gleam more money from the client.
However for any work he would need to issue a minor works certificate and it will say "Insulation resistance: Live - Live ............... MΩ Live - Earth ............. MΩ" this tells us how much it leaking to earth so ohm's law if 1 MΩ then 230/1000000 = 0.23 mA and your allowed 9 mA total with a 30 mA trip as although it says 30 mA it is actually between 15 and 30 mA must not trip at 15 must trip at 30, so ⅔ of that is 9 mA approx so that is considered as a safe level which will not cause a nuisance trip.
With RCBO's it is unlikely you will get 9 mA on any one circuit, but with one RCD for all, your down to 1.5 mA per circuit, now with any two wires with AC current you get some capacitance and induction leaking which will not show up on the insulation resistance test as done with 500 volt DC. So this is an as well as the insulation resistance, and any interference filters will also result in some leakage. (hence why only ⅔ to allow for some extra leakage)
So getting the leakage low enough to safely use a 30 mA RCD is really asking a lot for a whole house, years ago we fitted 100 mA RCD's on the whole house, and the regulations say 300 mA is normally deemed good enough to prevent fire, so if he had fitted a 100 mA RCD it would in most cases be ample, as in the main the RCD trips before we touch anything so by time we touch things it has already tripped, however the problem is since 2008 we have been told to use 30 mA, so although in 2004 I would have simply fitted a 100 mA version, today electricians need to follow the rule book to keep their membership on the schemes, so would not be keen to fit 100 mA even though clearly better than nothing.
So in 1992 when I fitted 30 mA I would have been better fitting 100 mA, but today we don't have that option.
If you have old rubber insulated wiring I would be worried, but if PVC even if 30 mA will not hold I would not be unduly worried. It is likely simply just too much cable for one RCD and no real fault. But what does your minor works say?
However for any work he would need to issue a minor works certificate and it will say "Insulation resistance: Live - Live ............... MΩ Live - Earth ............. MΩ" this tells us how much it leaking to earth so ohm's law if 1 MΩ then 230/1000000 = 0.23 mA and your allowed 9 mA total with a 30 mA trip as although it says 30 mA it is actually between 15 and 30 mA must not trip at 15 must trip at 30, so ⅔ of that is 9 mA approx so that is considered as a safe level which will not cause a nuisance trip.
With RCBO's it is unlikely you will get 9 mA on any one circuit, but with one RCD for all, your down to 1.5 mA per circuit, now with any two wires with AC current you get some capacitance and induction leaking which will not show up on the insulation resistance test as done with 500 volt DC. So this is an as well as the insulation resistance, and any interference filters will also result in some leakage. (hence why only ⅔ to allow for some extra leakage)
So getting the leakage low enough to safely use a 30 mA RCD is really asking a lot for a whole house, years ago we fitted 100 mA RCD's on the whole house, and the regulations say 300 mA is normally deemed good enough to prevent fire, so if he had fitted a 100 mA RCD it would in most cases be ample, as in the main the RCD trips before we touch anything so by time we touch things it has already tripped, however the problem is since 2008 we have been told to use 30 mA, so although in 2004 I would have simply fitted a 100 mA version, today electricians need to follow the rule book to keep their membership on the schemes, so would not be keen to fit 100 mA even though clearly better than nothing.
So in 1992 when I fitted 30 mA I would have been better fitting 100 mA, but today we don't have that option.
If you have old rubber insulated wiring I would be worried, but if PVC even if 30 mA will not hold I would not be unduly worried. It is likely simply just too much cable for one RCD and no real fault. But what does your minor works say?
My minor works report !
I don’t have one.
I have nothing in writing from the electrician whatsoever regarding anything he did.
That’s the problem.
All I have is him verbally telling me the rccb or whatever it was he tried fitting outside of box, for safety reasons, leading me to believe it was part of the regs , tripped on both lighting and plug circuits, so couldn’t be fitted so no paperwork at all.
No circuits were tested at all, to my knowledge.
he worked on both installing new lights and plugs ,oven,hob,fridge,etc.
Surely after doing all this work, he should have tested the circuits, before attempting to fit a rccb ?
To be honest, I’m totally confused.
You don’t usually employ an electrician to do work, then have to get another in to find faults that the first said were there but didn’t want to find.
The second electrician then has to test his work .
Before he came I had a CU with fuses for 26 years no problems .
“Ignorance is bliss.”
Changed fuses for mcb’s , expecting these to trip if any faults are there, they haven’t, so assume all’s well !
Safe.
It’s his attempt at fitting a rccb, which he suggested, for safety reasons, that has now left me wondering if my house is indeed safe.
“Tis folly to be wise.”
I don’t have one.
I have nothing in writing from the electrician whatsoever regarding anything he did.
That’s the problem.
All I have is him verbally telling me the rccb or whatever it was he tried fitting outside of box, for safety reasons, leading me to believe it was part of the regs , tripped on both lighting and plug circuits, so couldn’t be fitted so no paperwork at all.
No circuits were tested at all, to my knowledge.
he worked on both installing new lights and plugs ,oven,hob,fridge,etc.
Surely after doing all this work, he should have tested the circuits, before attempting to fit a rccb ?
To be honest, I’m totally confused.
You don’t usually employ an electrician to do work, then have to get another in to find faults that the first said were there but didn’t want to find.
The second electrician then has to test his work .
Before he came I had a CU with fuses for 26 years no problems .
“Ignorance is bliss.”
Changed fuses for mcb’s , expecting these to trip if any faults are there, they haven’t, so assume all’s well !
Safe.
It’s his attempt at fitting a rccb, which he suggested, for safety reasons, that has now left me wondering if my house is indeed safe.
“Tis folly to be wise.”
They do detect earth leakage current by measuring the residual current (imbalance) of the line and neutral.
Yes, with a neutral-earth fault on one circuit, an RCD can be tripped by current from another circuit (covered by the same RCD).
Yes, with a neutral-earth fault on one circuit, an RCD can be tripped by current from another circuit (covered by the same RCD).
They do not detect earth leakage, they detect an imbalance. They often do not even have an earth connection to them. One reason for an imbalance is earth leakage, there are others such using a borrowed neutral.
No, they measure residual current and respond.
One cause of this is current leakage to earth - therefore they detect it.
One cause of this is current leakage to earth - therefore they detect it.
Agreed.
No they detect an imbalance, they do not detect the cause.
When my electrician put the rccb/rcbo, I do not know which I tried to use, he said both light circuits a ring main we’re tripping as soon as he turned the power back on at the CU, so just took it out immediately ?
As there were no lights on in the house, he was on a step ladder with his headlamp on, by the CU,how would the light circuit trip.
As you both say, no lights on, no imbalance ?
I know that part of the lighting circuit must be live, but it is certainly limited.
The only things on in ring main were freezer and new fridge he wired .
Why did he not just unplug everything to eliminate electrical items before taking rccb out ?
He said it could be “earth leakage”, or anything, and could take ages to find.
Fair enough, but as nowt was on
It certainly reduces the places the “said” fault’s could be ?
I know I’m clutching at straws here, but I am wondering, were there any faults at all, he certainly did not want to find them, or put pen to paper.
Why would an electrician insist on installing a rccb,rcbo, which to my knowledge is not compulsory to have,knowing if it trips,
I was without any power until faults were remedied, which he had NO intention of doing.
It does not make any sense !
As there were no lights on in the house, he was on a step ladder with his headlamp on, by the CU,how would the light circuit trip.
As you both say, no lights on, no imbalance ?
I know that part of the lighting circuit must be live, but it is certainly limited.
The only things on in ring main were freezer and new fridge he wired .
Why did he not just unplug everything to eliminate electrical items before taking rccb out ?
He said it could be “earth leakage”, or anything, and could take ages to find.
Fair enough, but as nowt was on
It certainly reduces the places the “said” fault’s could be ?
I know I’m clutching at straws here, but I am wondering, were there any faults at all, he certainly did not want to find them, or put pen to paper.
Why would an electrician insist on installing a rccb,rcbo, which to my knowledge is not compulsory to have,knowing if it trips,
I was without any power until faults were remedied, which he had NO intention of doing.
It does not make any sense !
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