Rees Mogg - Grenfell victims who followed Fire Service advice lacked common sense

[JohnD]

yes, we can clearly see how the cladding makes no significant difference to the performance of the block of flats. Not worth worrying about.

 

[fillyboy]

We want warm, draught free buildings built to modern standards Plastics in its many forms can be useful and an asset but burn it it becomes a killer.

Quite, we don't want co2, everybody should run a diesel car. If only we could foresee the future.

 

[bernardgreen]

.. until filled with residents' furniture, carpets, curtains, books, magazines, newspapers, toiletries.....

which would only burn if the fire was able to reach them as a result of the fire breaching the compartmentisation of the building.

 

[motorbiking]

All this nonsense about blaming the residents or blaming the fire service is just obfuscation and turning the story away from the real problem.

My starting point is that it is not a good idea to wrap a building in flammable material.

If anybody wants to disagree with me, I am willing to listen to their reasons, and possibly argue it out.

Does anybody disagree?

I think it might be an over simplified argument. Is there a subset of the argument that says where a flammable material is used, how can it be encased or separated to reduce the spread of fire. This house is built from flammable material. A good idea would be to add some mitigation to the increase risk.

I can see a way for flammable material to be used without increased risk, if fire breaks are build in, natural chimneys are designed out and fire control put in place to mitigate.

I'm no expert, but wonder if the fire would not have spread so quickly had alternative floors been clad in non-flammable cladding, the air gap between concrete and cladding filled with fire retardant seal or the use of external damping?

 

[JohnD]

If a person accepts that it is not a good idea to wrap a building in flammable cladding, the idea of only wrapping half if it in flammable cladding can be seen to be ludicrous.

 

[Notch7]

'm no expert, but wonder if the fire would not have spread so quickly had alternative floors been clad in non-flammable cladding, the air gap between concrete and cladding filled with fire retardant seal or the use of external damping

The problem was a combination of faults, the external cladding was flammable, but also the celetex used was supposed to resist catching fire, but it was that combined with the funnel effect of the weather cavity that accelerated the fire.

Flats should have firebreaks, but the compartmentalisation was compromised by the refurbishment works. And as we know the fire spread across flats by the external cladding and the upvc windows.

Your image is of course only a 2 storey property, they dont need safe exit routes -its possible to jump out if a window.
Higher rise buildjngs cant use flammable materials as the rate of a fire spreading make the stairwells compromised.

Sprinklers would have been a part solution and mitigated risk of fire spread, but avoiding the use of flammable material wouldve been the key.
The building would not gave had such a bad fire had it been in its original non clad condition

 

[motorbiking]

If a person accepts that it is not a good idea to wrap a building in flammable cladding, the idea of only wrapping half if it in flammable cladding can be seen to be ludicrous.

I think the idea of a fire break is reasonably well established. There are typically many factors at play in any design, cost, performance, etc. Sometimes the performance of one degrades the other. The issue here seems to be that no mitigation was put in place.

A hell of a lot of burger kings catch fire because they flame grill. Over the years they have adapted ventilation and cleaning regimes to mitigate the risk.

 

[ellal]

A hell of a lot of burger kings catch fire because they flame grill. Over the years they have adapted ventilation and cleaning regimes to mitigate the risk.

Do they clad their ventilation shafts in potentially flammable material because it's cheaper?

Or do they do a proper risk assessment because they fear actually being held liable?

 

[motorbiking]

They are more diligent to clean the meat fat from the vents and ensure the vents are not encased in flammable material without a fire break.

The legal case surrounding this was quite interesting given that on the one side you have a building owner asking its tenant not to light fires in its building, on the other you had a company who's IP was around an open fire burger grill.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/how-a-spark-in-a-burger-king-led-to-national-chaos-1288371.html

Due to the chimney effect the fire was hot enough to combust the aluminium roof.
Should aluminium be considered flammable ?

 

[Ihavenojob]

Seeing as a large number of fires are caused by electrical faults, is it not time that rented accommodation had yearly safety checks , just like they do for gas, or do they already ? I know this won't take out the faults that are in private homes, but it could be a step in the right direction.

 

[motorbiking]

Would a faulty consumer appliance be picked up by such a check?

 

[Ihavenojob]

Would a faulty consumer appliance be picked up by such a check?

If they check it, yes. With gas you check the landlords appliances, so an electrical test may just test landlords equipment. But anything which lessens the risk of electrical fire would be a step in the right direction. Another factor is education and common sense, which sadly, seems lacking in many nowadays, as it is always someone else's fault, no one takes responsibility, and when living in overcrowded dwellings, other peoples safety has to be taken into account.

 

[motorbiking]

a bit of googling suggests you might not be correct on the assumption.

it seems smoking and cooking are top

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ttended-fire-rescue-england-1819-hosb1919.pdf

 

[Notch7]

The Grenfell inquiry seems like its being done in the wrong order.

The first phase shouldve been investigating the council, builders, building regulations and inspections.

In my mind, the stay put policy was due to the fire service not being aware of the changes to the building -had it met the building regulation standards the advice would have been correct.

 

[ellal]

Nice to know that the HofP will be retro fitted with sprinklers whilst these requirements don't exist for public buildings occupied/used by mere plebs due to 'funding issues'!