Reverse convection flow in wood-burner

If it has got to 95 degC, you want it to go to 'steam & boiling water down the drain fast' mode and not be fannying about with dubious circulation through a heat dump rad. Besides that, the T&PR is not intended to be piped to a circulation system where the discharge is under pressure. The pressure on the discharge will be the same as that in the store and will slow, or prevent, the valve opening to relieve high pressure.

I'd figured that out for myself! A pipe to the outside world fits the bill.


It could happen; for example, if the house were unoccupied during a freeze and the stove were fired up with CF & OV still frozen. There would be no convection and the frozen pipes would not thaw out.

That occurred to me when I read your post last night. I had assumed that two vents would be enough, but I hadn't considered the freezing aspect of the matter. You've convinced me: we're going to install a pressure relief valve!

PS The Dunsley neutraliser is a simply low loss header or a small buffer vessel. Low loss headers have been fabricated out of vessels or pipe for decades for chilled water or heating primary/secondary circuits. I think your store is, if anything, better than the Dunsley offering.

Thanks for the vote of confidence - I'm feeling a bit battered by all the negative comments I've received.

I've also just noted with amusement that people installing neutralisers have reverse flow problems too: see the following thread on this forum:

//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=139328

At least I'm not burning wood to heat an oil-fired boiler!
 
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My friend,you have half a neutraliser and a oil /heating system tagged on the side with unessecary motorised valves in it.
A true neutral point has all the flow and returns from every boiler and flow and return from it.
You also state that if it was going to overheat you would have to be deaf and dumb not to hear a problem.But if you had a gravity heat leak circuit as I suggested then you wouldn't even have to be at home to ensure safe operation.
Also I think that ideally you should have bought a solid fuel burning stove with a sensing phail in the water boiler to regulate the burning rate by automatically closing or opening the air inlet to control burning rate as needed. This would have negated the need for a thermal store in the first place and suffice to say a smaller neutral point was all that was needed.
Ideally running the system at a faster rate till hot water and heating hot then reducing air flow and refuelling just before bed to ensure constant steady heat till the fuel runs out and the oil boiler then kick in when needed.Now as well as heating up a five zone system you are heating up a thermal store and using extra fuel for no reason other than to distribute it into a very large system which has a lot of water in it so in effect only slightly warming the rads.
You correctly state that for full efficency for a woodburner you must burn it fast to ignite the gases that form smoke.This means wood is o.k while getting the system upto temperature but after that a fuel such as coke or anthracite is better for a big system such as yours as it burns better when regulated.
A lot of stove manufacturers make a wood stove,stick a boiler in it because they are scared to lose custom if they don't as everyone does it but a solid fuel burning appliance would have been better suited to your needs.
One thing to watch for if your water temperature on the return going into the wood boiler is too low it will rot the boiler from the fire side of the metal as the acidic gases condense on it .Lower water volumes are preferable or failing that a low limit stat to temporarily stop the pump from pumping cold water back to the boiler.Again wood is not ideal at preventing this.I have seen some boilers replaced within a year.

I must go and get ready for the pub as it is time to go out.
I'm sure we'll chat again
Parkymike...
 
My friend,you have half a neutraliser and a oil /heating system tagged on the side with unessecary motorised valves in it.

Well I could only start from where I was at and yes, I've got a hybrid system ... which is exactly what I wanted. I've added two valves: one to isolate the oil-fired boiler and one to isolate the heat store. Hardly complex! Compare my diagram with the Dunsley one http://www.dunsleyheat.co.uk/layout.htm

A true neutral point has all the flow and returns from every boiler and flow and return from it.

True. But that is not what I was trying to create. If I designed and built a house from scratch, and had unlimited money, I would have a truly massive heat store - probably underground because of the weight - and use underfloor heating because it will run at 25 - 30 deg C, run from a ground source heat pump. But I have an existing house that is 4 centuries old in parts; built mainly of stone, cob and wood; with a wet system using existing radiators. Short of adopting the "rip it all out" suggestion I have to work with what I've got.

Your earlier post that a 210 litre store is too far small for a house this size is correct. I'd love to have 2000 litres, or even 20,000 litres. But how could I possibly put that sort of weight into my roof structure? I bought the largest commercially available HW cylinder because it was the best compromise between cost, size and weight that I could achieve. In fact it holds about 1/2 hour's stove output at full blast, and that is a reasonable compromise.

You also state that if it was going to overheat you would have to be deaf and dumb not to hear a problem.But if you had a gravity heat leak circuit as I suggested then you wouldn't even have to be at home to ensure safe operation.

Again, true. But a wood-burner is a "hands-on" device, it can't be fuelled when no one is around. I could have bought a wood pellet boiler, but they start at £4000, require a hopper (another £1000), and pelleted wood is not much cheaper than oil. A silly solution in my view!

In practice the control system drops back to the oil-fired boiler when there is no wood-derived heat, or when we can't be bothered to light a fire.


Also I think that ideally you should have bought a solid fuel burning stove with a sensing phail in the water boiler to regulate the burning rate by automatically closing or opening the air inlet to control burning rate as needed. This would have negated the need for a thermal store in the first place and suffice to say a smaller neutral point was all that was needed.

As a matter of fact the stove has an "aqua-stat" which does exactly this. It is a flap over an air vent attached to a mechanical thermostat which is driven by the saddle boiler water temperature. I didn't mention this earlier because it didn't seem relevant to the flow problems.

It works, but the size of the air vent means that it only admits enough air to deliver about 1/3 of the max output when fuelled with hardwood. (Soft wood requires less air for more flame, and I suppose it is sized conservatively for this reason.) So it is not a complete solution.

In a funny way it may actually contribute to the reverse syphon problem by cooling down the stove when the store is hot!


Ideally running the system at a faster rate till hot water and heating hot then reducing air flow and refuelling just before bed to ensure constant steady heat till the fuel runs out and the oil boiler then kick in when needed.Now as well as heating up a five zone system you are heating up a thermal store and using extra fuel for no reason other than to distribute it into a very large system which has a lot of water in it so in effect only slightly warming the rads.

I have tried both "blaze up at bedtime" and "damp down to slumber overnight" approaches. The former seemed to work better, as low combustion rates not only produce too little heat to be useful but also tend to tar up the inside of the stove.

By the way the five zones have been there for 10 years. When we bought the house in 1996 it had only one zone, and a 15kW boiler which the builder said was undersized and should be replaced at vast expense. We deliberately broke the house into multiple heating zones, each separately timed and controlled, and I cannot understand why all houses are not organised like that. We still have that 15kW boiler, and by directing its heat only where and when it is needed we have saved a fortune in fuel. Zoning the system also reduces the volume of water you need to heat at any one time.

In practice the heat store will typically reach 60 - 70 deg C overnight, and will run the rads for 15 to 20 minutes in the morning before it gets so cool that the oil-fired boiler takes over.

You correctly state that for full efficency for a woodburner you must burn it fast to ignite the gases that form smoke.This means wood is o.k while getting the system upto temperature but after that a fuel such as coke or anthracite is better for a big system such as yours as it burns better when regulated.

Wood is £40/(wet)ton. Coal is £400/ton. Energy content of dry wood is 18 - 22 GJ/ton, energy content of coal is 27 - 30 GJ/ton. Money doesn't grow on trees, but wood does!


A lot of stove manufacturers make a wood stove,stick a boiler in it because they are scared to lose custom if they don't as everyone does it but a solid fuel burning appliance would have been better suited to your needs.

See cost comparison above. We have enough trees for about 20% of our needs, a dutch barn for drying it and a chainsaw, and I'm not afraid of hard work. Also I grew up in a house with an anthracite fired Aga, and I remember well the happy day when we converted it to oil. Coal is filthy stuff!

One thing to watch for if your water temperature on the return going into the wood boiler is too low it will rot the boiler from the fire side of the metal as the acidic gases condense on it .Lower water volumes are preferable or failing that a low limit stat to temporarily stop the pump from pumping cold water back to the boiler.Again wood is not ideal at preventing this.I have seen some boilers replaced within a year.

I'm well aware of this and, as you say, a smaller store is good in this respect because the return temp rises quite fast. Wet wood + coal is an absolute killer according to the instructions provided with the stove. Had I fitted a larger store I think it would have been necessary to organise a (pumped) loop around the stove to recirculate hot water purely to stop in the incoming flow being too cold.

Because I clear out the ash every day I have been monitoring the boiler state, and can check for any corrosion. So far so good... the key is to burn dry as opposed to wet wood.

I must go and get ready for the pub as it is time to go out.

Beware reverse circulation of beer, it can cause hiccups and other unpleasant symptoms!
 
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I've also just noted with amusement that people installing neutralisers have reverse flow problems too: see the following thread on this forum:

//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=139328

At least I'm not burning wood to heat an oil-fired boiler!

I think his oil-fired boiler/heat dumper was higher than the thermal store

I got the impression it was in the roof. More to the point his plumber was still puzzled after 10 days and, as far as I can see, there was no resolution of the problem. I prefer valves giving positive control of flow.

Perhaps we need to write that mythical text-book on the subject!
 
Did you ever get the issue of the reverse thermo syphoning on the wood stove sorted?

We had (have) exactly the same on our Fireview 20kw / thermal store / oil boiler setup.

After over 2 years the plumber couldn't sort it (amongst a list of other problems that he caused / couldn't sort) and walked off the job leaving us with a half cocked system that must be terrible inefficient.

Just interested on how your system is working now and the controls you use.

We have to constantly tweak thermostats to make sure the rads are on when we need then and the oil boiler is not fighting against the wood stove, a real pain...

Reading through your post it seems you are after the same as we were in terms of simplicity, ease of use, the potential of power failure and having the oil for backup, both the wb stove and oil working in harmony....
.
.
 
We have to constantly tweak thermostats to make sure the rads are on when we need then and the oil boiler is not fighting against the wood stove, a real pain...

The solid fuel controls should over ride the room stats. You can do that with relays.
 
The answer to your "did I get it sorted?" question is "yes and no".

My problem was that if I had a hot thermal store, but allowed the stove to go out, then relighting the stove sucked hot water down the pipe to the stove causing convection to stall and - effectively - reverse.

I avoided, rather than solved, the problem by improving my management of the stove as follows:

I always had a dual-channel digital thermometer on the flow and return to the stove, allowing me to monitor its performance. So I added a second dual-channel thermometer to the flow and return tappings on the heat store up in the roof, giving me the ability to monitor the temperatures throughout the stove / convection circuit / heat store system.

Experience showed that the "convection stall" problem only arose when the temperature at the base of the heat store was about 25 deg C or more hotter than the outlet of the (cold) stove, ie roughly 45 deg C or hotter. So before relighting the stove I check the thermometers for this condition, and if it exists I just run any central heating circuit for a few minutes until the temp at the base of the heat store has dropped below this figure.


The correct solution to my problem (as obtained from suggestions on this forum) is clearly to fit an auxiliary pump to the convection circuit, running in parallel to the circuit and using an injection tee to "push the flow" into the proper direction.

I've got as far as getting the tee made up, and also designing the circuitry to control it automatically, but I have yet to install it as working with 28mm copper is a bit beyond my skill and equipment level. Also I'm lazy and now that I understand the problem it is easy to avoid it, it hasn't occurred for 12 months now and we have been beautifully warm this winter without burning any oil at all.



You ask how our system works and is controlled. The plumbing side is really, really simple and seems to work well (barring the above, now easily avoided). It is organised as follows:

Our central heating system was originally oil-fired, and is a fully pumped and open (vented) system with a header tank in the roof. None of this plumbing has been changed.

The Woodburner (fully boilered 20kW Woodwarm) has a convection circuit to a heat store (bog standard 210 litre direct hot water cylinder) in the roof. This too is open and vented, as required by building regs, using the same header tank as the original CH system.

The heat store is plumbed in parallel with the oil-fired boiler. No secondary coils or anything, just tappings at top and bottom and everything shares the same water.

There are two motorised valves: one on the return to the boiler, and the other on the return to the heat store. Both are normally closed.

There is a thermostat near the top of the heat store, set to about 55 deg C. When this is cold then any demand from the CH system causes the motorised valve to the oil-fired boiler to open, and the system operates as before. When this thermostat is hot then demand from the CH system causes the motorised valve to the heat store to open instead, and heat is drawn from there instead of the boiler.

That's it.


There is a bit of electrical work to be done as follows:

In the original system demand from the CH system sent power to both boiler and pump, and that was that. Simples!

Now demand from the CH system goes to that thermostat on the heat store which directs demand either to the motorised valve on the boiler pipe (when cold) or the heat store pipe (when hot). These motorised valves have micro-switches which turn on when the valves are fully open (that's a standard feature of these valves, nothing special), and these are wired as follows:

The Boiler valve's microswitch turns on a two-pole relay which activates both pump and boiler.

The Heat store valve's microswitch turns on just the pump directly.

(You have to separate electrical power to pump and boiler in this way if you are to run the pump alone when using the heat store, hence the two pole relay.)


There is also an overheat safety system:

A second thermostat near the bottom of the heat store is set to about 75 deg C.

If this is turned on, ie things are getting too hot, then an override circuit which bypasses all timers and room thermostats forcibly opens the motorised valve on the heat store and pumps water round selected CH circuits. If the boiler is running then its motorised valve (and hence also the boiler) is turned off. The aim, obviously, is to extract excess heat in a safe manner.


Since our house has 5 separate CH circuits there are further timers and a control box with lights as shown early on in this thread, but this is not necessary. All you need are the two electrical circuits:

(1) Detect when heat store is hot enough to use, and supply hot water from there instead of boiler.

(2) Detect when stove is getting too hot and dump that heat somewhere.


If you can describe how your system is put together I'll try to help.
 
Cider wrote:

activated would produce a positive pumping action as a result of the orientation of the swept parts of the tee.

I think I understand this (sorry for my ignorance, I'm an engineer not a plumber). Is a swept tee a larger diameter pipe in which a smaller internal diameter nozzle points in the wanted flow direction? It sounds ideal: no impediment to gravity flow, and a boost from the pump when required.

And no, I'm not "Colin ex-RD". What's "RD"?


Cider wrote:
Or make up an oversized injector tee where the pump joins back in

I think this is essentially the same idea.


Can either of you point me to anywhere where I can find out more about injector tees? It sounds like the right answer, so thanks guys.
R D = Readers Digest :idea: You can make a tee with a cut off reducer slipped into the port of the tee which you want to be the injector . Did it myself in the 70`s ;) 28=Tee and a 28x15 reducer - end feed fittings
 
R D = Readers Digest :idea: You can make a tee with a cut off reducer slipped into the port of the tee which you want to be the injector . Did it myself in the 70`s ;) 28=Tee and a 28x15 reducer - end feed fittings

That's pretty much what I've got made up. That's the easy bit!

Crawling around in the roof among glass-fibre insulation, draining down, adding and lagging new pipes, putting in the pump and wiring ... that's the hard bit!

I wish someone would design a pump with sufficient free flow area that one could (safely) put directly in series in a convection circuit.
 

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