Ring Circuit - ready reckoner

Joined
30 Mar 2015
Messages
4,165
Reaction score
64
Country
United Kingdom
Quick question if I may please: We have a Ring Circuit in our house which is operated by a 32amp breaker. This affects a cable that is running down from the loft, through our old airing cupboard and into the ground floor somewhere. I have done some testing to establish this. As this cable travels through the airing cupboard it is joined in a JB (It's a through join to extend the cable at some point I think). This JB happens to be exactly where I want to cite a new double socket!

As an initial test (after safe isolation), can I grab the two ends of each wire in this JB and do a continuity test and if I have continuity, this suggests we have a Ring and I can safely proceed with the new socket on the ring. If I don't have continuity (across any wires), it would suggest a Spur/Radial and I can investigate further from the loft or wherever it heads down to.

Are there any flaws with this approach?

Thanks in advance.
 
Sponsored Links
Sounds very much like it's a Spur off the Ring but could be part of a Ring so test away to find out. Do you know where it goes after the Joint box?

Maybe a Fused spur / FCU will help if it's just a spur unless there's already one upstream somewhere?
 
Sounds very much like it's a Spur off the Ring but could be part of a Ring so test away to find out. Do you know where it goes after the Joint box?

Maybe a Fused spur / FCU will help if it's just a spur unless there's already one upstream somewhere?
I will get my Megger out and do some testing/investigation. If it's not on the Ring, I am guessing that it's tapped off the Ring downstairs and heading up to the loft to power the double socket. In which case, I will put a 13amp FCU before the loft socket (probably in the loft) and then out to the current loft socket and then down to the new socket in the airing cupboard.

I will try to put the FCU downstairs but I think that will involve redecoration, etc. which I would rather avoid.

Would appreciate your comments on my speculation.
 
Yes you should have continuity for all three line, neutral and earth if a ring final. Any spur from a ring final will have a 13 amp fuse or two to protect it, this could be in the plug if it supplies a single or double socket or in a FCU if it supplies multiple sockets. With a 32 amp supply from a B type MCB/RCBO the current must be able to exceed 5 x 32 amp to trip the overload, plus 5% safety margin, so line - neutral loop impedance using ohms law is 230/160 = 1.44 Ω and with the 5% safety margin 1.38 Ω however once it goes through a 13 amp fuse that is increased to 2.42 Ω not sure if 5% required for a fuse, the problem is a MCB is two devices in one, the thermal trip is 32 amp, the magnetic trip is 5 times that value, and if it is just under the 160 amp required the tripping time jumps from around 0.01 seconds to around 5 seconds, not looked at the chart but it takes far longer to trip.

Were with a fuse it may go from 0.1 seconds to 0.15 no where near the jump found with a trip.

So the loop impedance with a 32 amp MCB/RCBO is very important just one meter too long can cause problems, but with a fuse the difference is very much less, so if 2.50 Ω instead of 2.42 Ω the tripping time has not altered much, but with an MCB 0.38 Ω likely short circuit will disconnect in 0.01 seconds but at 1.50 jumps to 5 seconds.

The problem is the cheap plug in testers were designed for Europe with 16 or 20 amp supplies, so pass anything over 1.9 Ω, that is OK for a 20 amp radial but not a 32 amp ring final.

We can do a dead test R1 + R2 as it is called, but that needs a low ohmmeter which uses at least 200 mA, so not the standard multi meter.

In the real world the loop impedance to trip the B32 is far higher than the loop impedance that equates to a 5% volt drop, 0.95 Ω if incomer is 0.35 Ω so one should be no where near the limit, it works out at 106 meters of 2.5 mm² the old one was 4% so 88 meters. Going over the volt drop limit is not really dangerous, so would not worry about it.

However for an electrician best option is to extend the ring, but for DIY where they have not got the test equipment a fused spur is the safer option, I used a socket and fuse plus switch IMGP7387c.jpg using the Screwfix LAP range, my dad trusted to the lord, but 7/029 is larger than 2.5 mm² so he could get away with it.

If you have the EICR from when you moved in, it will show how close to the wind you are sailing, today with RCD protection we are only really worried about line - neutral loop impedance. The earth loop impedance is likely well within limits to trip a RCD.

In real life we are not likely to be anywhere near the limits, I can borrow my sons loop impedance meter, it was mine, but I would be happy running for 6 months before testing as I know the old readings so also have a good idea on how much I can add.
 
Sponsored Links
Yes you should have continuity for all three line, neutral and earth if a ring final.
If I had continuity on 1 (and certainly if it had it on 2 of them) of them, that would still indicate that it's part of a Ring but it has break in continuity across some of the wires?

And, fortunately I own a Megger MFT.
 
Continunity on the earth is not a good guide, because there might be supplementary bonding, or (say) a boiler attached to metal pipes
 
UPDATE: I did my investigation this evening and learnt that this is a Radial based of this (blue one set to off) breaker:
1693774531315.png


The writing on it suggests that it was once used for the Immersion Heater which makes sense as the JB i referred to, is in the airing cupboard. The leg that goes into the loft is powering a double socket.

The circuit is using a 2.5mm T&E cable. My understanding is that this breaker is rated at 15amp and hence, adequately protecting this cable on a radial. Can you please confirm.

Assuming yes, I plan to stick a (may be two) double sockets in the airing cupboard where the JB is currently situated. The cable can then continue upwards to the double socket in the loft. I may also add a FCU at the end of this line (after the loft socket) and use this to power a light circuit in the loft.

Can I please have your thoughts on this plan. Thanks again.
 
There does not seem to be any RCD protection on that ancient Fusebox.
As you should know by now, any new sockets must be protected by a 30mA RCD. So you can’t add a socket, Unless there is an RCD that we cannot see.

That board is well past it’s use by date. You should get a competent and registered electrician to install a new consumer unit that meets today’s regs.
 
There does not seem to be any RCD protection on that ancient Fusebox.
As you should know by now, any new sockets must be protected by a 30mA RCD. So you can’t add a socket, Unless there is an RCD that we cannot see.

That board is well past it’s use by date. You should get a competent and registered electrician to install a new consumer unit that meets today’s regs.
There is an RCD circuit, seen in the image below for a separate Ring. I could take a spur from there but it will require considerable more work. Especially, since, I already have a cable going through the airing cupboard (from the radial circuit mentioned above).
1693813460586.png


I think you are referring to a regulation which prevents this? Given that this radial has a socket on it already (in loft) and almost certainly had a point in the airing cupboard previously for the Immersion Heater, am I really not allowed to situate (probably restore...) a socket here?!? Instead, I need to replace the entire consumer unit which by the way is within it's 5 years of an EICR. Is that really warranted and pragmatic?
 
New socket, new regs. Sorry.

New consumer unit = notification = membership of CPS (eg NICEIC). Just owning an MF tester doesn’t qualify you. Sorry again.
 
Best you get quotes for a new RCBO board with SPD .............. and check on your earthing and bonding too.

Sorry but that's the regs.

As for the EICR - a little surprised the current set up passed TBH - what C3's were noted?
 
Back to the drawing board with this I think. I could spur from the RCD ring but will need some careful planning. In the meantime, I will make some enquiries on the board replacement.

Thanks for the advice.
 

DIYnot Local

Staff member

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.


Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

 
Sponsored Links
Back
Top