For your reading pleasure, a transcript of the conversation I had with the contractor yesterday. I'll be formulating a "list of work" and faxing it over, giving him the chance to rectify faults in the work. I have also contacted some other roofing companies who have said they will come round, look at the job and quote for correcting, and I've contacted the council who say if the loading on the structure (weight of the tiles) has varied by more than 15% either way, or if the job includes a loft insulation change to bring the insulation above the 250 mm minimum requirement, then the work can be controlled under the BUilding Regs, and is basically a cheaper way of getting an "OK" than hiring the services of a chartered surveyor.
THe new roof, by my calcs, is between 14% and 18% lighter; marley/redland rosemary tiles are between 64 and 67 kgsm, the duoplain are 55kgsm. (67-55)/55 = 18%
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Me: My brother's been on the roof to have a look at some things and he has come up with the following list.. The ridge tiles are stuck on with expanding foam?
B: Yeah, that's how we do them now, they're made of fibreglass
Me: He was expecting them to be rendered on
B: No, they're a lot stronger and there's a special foam now, what we use
Me: The chimney, I thought was going to have a vented cap
B: Oh, she never said, she just said cap it off with a slate because the chimney is just in the loft
Me: That's right, it's cut at ceiling level, nothing on the two downstairs floors and then there is a hole broken in the bottom of it which was providing some ventilation. There's a lot of condensation in the loft now. Where's that come from (reference the vented elephant's foot on the flat roof) – wasn't our old chimney pot there?
B2: We've fitted your pot to next door, because he wasn’t getting any draw at his fireplace.
Me: Right, no problem
B: But you want your chimney vented?
Me: Can you put that [vented elephant's foot] pot on our our chimney then?
B: Yes
Me: Now, the cement render on the chimney as it is is a bit weak, my brother rubbed it with his fingers and it powdered off. He said it was probably put on too late in the day on a cold day and the frost has got at it
B: Well, it'll cure that when we put that pot back on [because it will be re-rendered]
Me: He wasn’t too happy about the join here between the ridge tiles and the chimney, we were under the impression that this was going to be taken off and re-flashed
B: He has taken it off and re-flashed it
B2: The new soakers are underneath the slate, you can see them there [indicates some bit of lead flashing laid between two tiles at the top. It's under the slate, not over it; theyre soakers and he should have realised that
Me: Does that soaker there extend far enough then?
B: Yes, it's fine
B2: Yes
Me: OK, I had a couple of comments as well that rendering (the ridge tile to the chimney) in a situation like this can upset the normal water coursing and divert the water to places it's not meant to flow, it could leak
Me: The top line of tiles, what happened there? The headlap between the top and second rows is massive and it's a bit ugly
B: It's because of the way the tiling runs are done, the back of the house is different to the front, and when we come up in course, we can't just finish off with a little strip of tiles so we've had to put a full..
Me: Could you not have just adjusted the spacing of all the rows of tiles to count for that?
B: See from that last one there (indicates the second to last row), when you set it off the ridge just clips it; we could have left it and not had that tile, and just had a bit of waterproofer in but it's just not good enough, so for that reason we put the extra line of tiles in
(ME THOUGHT: Why not just measure the span being tiled, and divide it up to provide sufficient headlap, then lay the battens at a proper spacing to avoid the last row being a massive headlap?)
because the back of the house gets a lot of wind. It's better to have it watertight and looking a bit overlapped.. (ME THOUGHT: should I just leave it looking a bit arse, or should I ask for the top 3 rows of tiles to be stripped back and spaced out to subdue the extent of this runout)
Me: OK. It might need some vents in the gable wall because there is a lot of condensation in the loft
B: Is it really that bad?
Me: Well, on the side that was catching the sun the other day it seemed to be better, but the felt on the front side was quite soaked. (I neglected to mention the house isn’t actually being lived in right now)
B: I wonder if you'd be better off having a vented tile rather than the chimney
Me: Along the top, on the ridges?
B: No, more in the middle of the roof, two tile vents on the back
Me: Yes, but then you'd need some tile vents on the other side to provide a through flow of draught
B: Air flow's alright from the back, honestly
Me: I've been reading about vent tiles and apparently they work best when they are on both sides of the roof to provide flow regardless of the direction of the wind, so that's why I figured that in the gable end would be less intrusive in terms of looks and you get flow across from the gable and out the chimney
B: OK, we can do that
Me: OK, taking a look at where the roof changes pitch, these two rows.. Howcome there is no stagger on the tiles?
B: How do you mean?
Me: Take a look at the tiles, theyre in line rather than staggered, like brickwork should be
B: We gotta stagger them from this side..
Me: OK, but why on this fourth row up, why is that not a half tile and then it would be staggered relative to the next row
(Builders discuss, eventually realise what I'm saying)
Me: Yes, it's like the rows are in the wrong order.. see the 3rd row up, with the half tile.. that should be the 4th row up
B: Yes, I see. It won't be detrimental to the roof though
Me: OK. I've been told that because the pitch of this part of the roof is much shallower, that the headlap of the tiles needs to be increased. Here the headlap is about 2 inches when it would be better at 4 or more
B: I'm happy with that lap, are you, builder 2?
B2: Yes
B: For that kind of pitch, that headlap will be fine. I'm happy that it will be OK
Me: Now, these tiles on the back verge of the shallow roof, they don't project far enough and they rely on the felt to dump the water into the gutter. I don't think the felt will provide an effective permanent dripping strip to put the water into the gutter, plus this last row of tiles is on a different angle to the tiles on the rest of the roof.. it's a steeper pitch
B: Yes.. That's double battened too, believe it or not
Me: Can it be triple battened?
B: The actual gutter, is too low, it wants lifting
Me: Well I'm thinking to have the gutters replaced as a separate job because the outlet there in the cast iron one is tiny.. So what to do about the tiles?
B: Well you can't really triple batten
Me: Well how about sticking another row of tiles in as a kicker
B: Yep, if you put another row of tiles in it will help it kick up a bit but the gutter will still need looking at
Me: Sure, we'd get those sorted out as well
B: I could put a flashing kit into it
Me: Same as over the bay window? That slab of black plastic?
B: Yes
Me: Yeah, well I'm not 100% happy with that either but I'll get to that
Me: The verges here on the shallow pitch part facing the bay.. I've had a comment that the render isn't thick enough. My brother was squeezing it to see, and his finger went through it so I don't know whether the expanding foam underneath it has carried on expanding and pushed it out but also, there;s not much of an overhang here.. there should be about 50 mil on the verges, but the rendering comes out triangular to meet the tiles which means there is no overhang on the verge
B: It's the fault of the render of the wall, the way it steps out
(ME THOUGHT: Well cut it off then!)
Me: No, I'm talking about the verge just under the tile.. it goes triangular away from the wall out the edge of the tile. If it was just straight up, no problem, but it comes out to meet the overhanging edge of the tile
B: We haven’t put that render on, that's existing render
(I think he and I are talking at crossed purposes, we climb up to point at what I'm talking about)
B: Oh, yeah, that is wrong that is, the foam's carried on expanding and pushed that out. We'll take that out. We just re-did what was there.
Me: OK, now at the same time can you put a lead gutter in here [indicating the point where the edge of the shallow roof meets the steep roof], so it's flashed off this side, and water cannot get between this steep roof tile, and the wall. It's a short section so I want it continuous from there (indicates eaves edge of steep roof) up to past the point where the roof changes pitch
B: Yes, we'll do that.
B: So, you don't like that slab of black plastic that dumps the water onto the flat roof?
Me: No, not in the slightest. I'd prefer to have a line of tiles dumping water into a proper gutter, and have that line of tiles finish in line with next door's roof
B: Well there was never any gutter there before
Me: Mmm, I know.. The guttering would be a sorted as a separate job, but I think it does need doing. I'm not expecting you to do that in with this one
B: I don't know what happened there (ref the slab of black plastic)
(ME THOUGHT: Get the feeling that this guy doesn’t always supervise jobs and leaves less capable workers to bodge stuff in, but if he's going to have it sorted..)
but the flat roof does go back far enough to catch any water..
Me: Yeah, but it's leaked before and it's knackered. You can lift it up here look..
B: Dear god, yes.. It's knackered
Me: That wants replacing too, but again, as a separate job, and a proper gutter because neighbour's roof is collecting water which is dumped onto a broken flat roof too; it's just going to be a headache
B: Where does this crappy bit of gutter go?
Me: It was blocked, so, nowhere. I unblocked it and it now dumps onto the flat roof down there, then flows across and off
B: Right, yeah..
Me: Probably best off having a gutter that runs right the way along, down there, along and into the drains on the other side properly
B: I'd agree with that
Me: can you make these tiles finish on a better line with next door?
B: The only thing I can really do is put another row in. I can't bring these ones down because of the lap. I've done one (ONLY ONE?) of these before and they had the same [change of pitch]. When you start, you have to start off that point there (where the shallow meets steep, mid roof) and work away from it otherwise it looks a mess. Cause we started there, the batten runs through at that level and there's nothing I can do with that short strip cause of the size of the tile. It's a pain in the arse.
(Discussion of why the ceiling is cracked in the bathroom. Moving swiftly on)
Me: Now, this join. I can't see any gutter under there. We took tiles out and had a look and couldn’t see anything
B: We use a double felt, we put the felt under (the neighbours roof) and then re-use the other felt (from next door) cause it's a rubberised felt which is quite adequate for that. They're quite happy for us to do that. [If you use one of those hidden gutters] then the roof tiles kick up; there's a big kick on them. I did explain this (to her father; I wasn’t involved in the preliminaries), you get a horrible kick up, you have to sand/cement the join and they crack, and it still lets in.. But with that we put a sealant down, double felted and we've never had a problem with it.
Me: Is it a problem, to join two roves together with silicone?
B: No
Me: I've read though, that typically there is a line of cement render, concrete, even ridge tiles at an ugly push.. and the really expensive ones are a wooden bolster wrapped with lead and secret gutters on both sides
B: That's right.. Well we could have sand and cemented that rather than the silicone. I prefer the silicone because it doesn’t crack
Me: And that's good for 10 years is it?
B: Well if it leaks, I come back and I'm quite happy to do that. I don't think it will because it's double felted.. I swear down, the hidden valleys are a pain in the arse and that's why we stopped using them
Me: Now, next door neighbour's tiles have been pulled over to butt up in some places. Is that going to cause a problem?
B: No
Me: The perimeter tiles, should they not be fixed down?
B: No, you can't fix these on here (indicates the tiles abutting next door)
Me: I'm more concerned about the front side tiles actually because of the way these tiles lap over each other.. on the front side the last tiles to be laid are the ones in the middle of the roof, which means they hold down the next tile, which holds down the next tile. My bro lifted the lead apron at the front side of the chimney to have a look under it and the tile at the top slid out, nothing holding it
B: I'll take a look at it
Me: He said it's really important to make those tiles to be secure because the security of the row depends on them. Also, the very top tile on the front under the chimney apron, the corner broke off and it's been siliconed back on. Can you change it
B: I'll take a look
Me: Last thing.. He was expecting to see some clips on the verge tiles
B: No, there isn’t any clips. We don't use the clips, and what I've done there if you see, is provide a greater overhang on the gable end, because the gable was always wet every time we came we've allowed more overhang than normal to keep the water off the gable. Certainly don't need the clips, we've just pointed them up. Normally I would have put a board under there, but because we've left a good lap, we can't get the board to sit in
(JUST THOUGHT: So, bigger overlap, more for the wind to lift, more need for clips)
(I'm a little confused at this point. I'd have asked for clarification but it's sheeting down with rain and we're debating over clips. It seems an easy retro-fit to me so I don't push it)
Me: There's some lumps of expanding foam littering the garden, and final point I just remembered.. We contact the planning permission guys and they said though planning isn't needed, any change that affects the insulation can require building regs approval unless it's done by a contractor who's a member of a competent person scheme.. Can you certify it, or do we need to ask them?
B: You would need to get it certified with building control then, because.. Theyre quite happy with the felt I can guarantee that.. Of course you can see we've helped your insulation rather than not helped because there was no felt in the first place. The amount of roves we've done I've never heard of that come up to be honest. That’s a first time I've ever been asked.
Me: I'll phone the council and ask them then
B: Yeah, no worries. I know most of them on the council and I never heard of that. It might be part of this eco.. (I forget) Youre not going to lose as much heat out of there, now because of the felt. I'd have thought if we hadn’t felted it they would be a bit concerned
Me: Yeah, though now of course there's a bit of a condensation problem that we need to sort..
(Some discussion about the guttering, who will do it, when it will be done etc)
B: Do you want us to replace the flat roof too?
Me: Havent decided what to do with it yet.. I don't know how viable it would be to extend this shallow pitch part full span to cover it, but the framework for it would be a bit of a pain
B: Yeah, you couldn't really do that, not with [these kind of tiles], you're probably looking at replacing it with the same thing, flat roof with felt. It's got other problems too because it falls toward the house
B: Now, we'll try and get that bathroom skimmed over. It'll need a new skim cause it cant' really be repaired
(Some discussion about how things will be done and when. I agree to make a list and fax it over)
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Long, wasn't it?
Now some questions:
Am I OK to have the short ridge tile to be moved to the chimney end? It just looks ugly being between two full size ridge tiles, but if it has to be there, I guess I'll have to accept it.
The top row of tiles, hidden behind the scaffold bar (doh) with the massive headlap (visible in the below picture of the gable end - click for bigger):
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Is it reasonable to ask that the top 3 or 4 rows of tiles be stripped, battens moved and relaid to lessen the ugliness of this frankenstein row? Or is it better to just either have the tiles cut shorter, or left as is and put up with it?
I'm going to ask for the shallow roof to be stripped and relaid with a bigger headlap, proper stagger, sensible gutter projection, proper verges and a kicker row of tiles. I never asked before, but here and maybe elsewhere the felt is sandwiched between two battens.. Having been told by the building inspector that it is the design of a breathable membrane that condensation soaks through it, maybe condensing on the tiles, dripping off the tiles and running down the other side of the felt, should the bottom of a felt line be sandwiched in this way? (I know that felt is not supposed to be a water-course but if it ever were..) Should I be having an alteration made to this?
Vent to be installed in gable end. Is there any calculation I can perform as to the size of the vent required?
How many of the tiles will have to come off in order to fit the gutter between the two rooves? All of them? A triangle of them?
I found this picture..
I'm curious to know why there isnt some kind of top covering here, like a mortar bead? Should I be asking for a mortar bead or just having them left abutted? (without silicone)
When it is recommended that "all perimeter tiles be mechanically fixed" what does this mean? That a screw or nail is whacked through the hole at the top, and a clip in the headlapping section is applied? Does the clip need to fix to anything?
The builder complained about the short distance between the point where the shallow pitch meets steep, and the bay window verge, saying that was the reason for the slab of black plastic. Am I being reasonable in saying "nonsense, strip those rows of tiles out, adjust the battens so you can put another row in without it looking like a pig's ear, and fall it into a gutter properly" ?
The last, and perhaps most important question; why am I doing this?! Why am I taking a week out of my life to write letters, make phone calls, bore you guys senseless and stand in the ****ing rain with 4 laser print sheets of faults? I went to uni to become a software engineer so that I could pay someone else to do this. As it is, I'm wishing I'd read up on everything, spoken to you guys and done it myself - i'd have taken a similar amount of time as has been poured into it so far, paid less and been happy with the job. Bah.
Thanks as ever for all the advice and opinions received so far
