Roofing techniques question

[Xenon]

(Xenon - the expression 'polish a turd' is copyrighted by me - it's been my chosen expression for about 20 years!)

You are a young whippersnapper then.

 

[cjard]

There's so much wrong with this roof that the only option IMO is to strip off and start again

Just a couple of points:-

1. When you worked out the weight difference you've based it on Duoplains - your tiles are Marley Moderns or Redland Mini Stonewold or something similar.

Indeed. I called Redland, and the guy I spoke to (sent a load of photos) was incredibly helpful and really knew his stuff. He advised that the mini stonewold are between 50 - 54 kg/sqm; lighter than duoplains, making the new roof significantly lighter and hence falling under building regs document A for loading. He also advised that he could see several other errors including those already discussed, that made the roof outside of Redland laying specification and as such they would offer no warranty of their products.

His most damning comment was perhaps "I've seen some things in my 15 years as a roofer, but this.. Is something else"

2. The photo that you have found showing a joint between properties is the proper way to do it, there will be a bonding gutter under the tiles which when properly installed does not kick the tiles up. Incidentally the tiles in the photo are Duoplain or similar.

That image was from a "work we've done" on a website of K Roofing, but it's also how other roofs in the area look, that have had their rosemaries replaced with bigger tiles. If my roof had looked like that (and it reasonably does from the front) then I probably wouldnt have even questioned the other bits. I spoke to a few local home-owners and got a few names of roofers and feedback on how they were in case I'd need them.


As a small update, I called round yesterday morning to measure the roof pitches and check the headlap specs with redland (75-100mm for that tile, some of those laps are far outside of that) and he was there fixing some of the work I'd complained about. I thanked him for being so prompt but advised him not to do too much as I would probably be asking him to strip the roof and re-lay it.

I finally had to tell the girlfriend about the problems because the builder had called her saying I wasnt happy and he was concerned he wasnt going to get paid (christmas, got to pay his lads etc etc). I subsequently called him back and explained that I'd decided what I'd do is:
1) Give him 500 quid for the materials. Apparently the neice downstairs has already paid 1500, so he's got 2 grand out of it (if it is to be believe that the family member was being charged the full whack) which should cover materials, labour and scaffold.
I would then bring the council in to check it meets regulations under A, C, L1b and Document 7 and have the inspector look at the work with him, and me. If the council say OK, it's a flawless roof and meets spec then I'll pay for the roof. I'll also stand the cost of the council survey because it's me that's made all the noise. If the inspector says it's not acceptable then I'll see if he will offer direction on what is to happen, but I'll basically be following you guys' insistences that it is to be stripped and re-laid.

So now, I hope that the council will a) take a look at it (because apparently they don't have to if they read the app form and don't think there will be a problem) and b) pick so many faults that they insist it be re-laid. If they don't or they say it's within all acceptable limits including workmanship, as noted the guy gets paid. If I'm then still smoking about it, I'll take the pictures along to a local chartered surveyor or the insurance company legal team, see if they'll look at it and I'll consider legal action.

My bro was fuming, as I'm sure you guys would be.. Stuff like this means all good builders who take a pride in their work get looked on with suspicion

 

[Xenon]

Was it Brian Mason at Redland you spoke to?

 

[cjard]

I can't really say, as I promised the guy that I would only quote what he was allowed to officially comment on; The Redland products on this job were not installed according to Redland specification and as such any warranty for fitness for purpose or against material defects is void.

The rest of the stuff the guy talked me through was basically "opinions of my own and not the official statement of Redland" yada. He was incredibly helpful and knowledgeable though; a credit to his department and his company.

 

[Xenon]

Sounds like Brian.

 

[Alastairreid]

thanks for keeping us updated cjard.

what was your builders response when you suggested the roof may have to be stripped ?

 

[chappers]

I very much doubt that, even if he does strip and relay that this guy will be capable of doing the job properly. i would sack him off get a decent roofer in then tell him you will give him whatever is left of his contract fee after you have paid the new roofer.
Where abouts are you CJ, I'm sure someone on here could reccomend a decent roofer in your area.

 

[Alastairreid]

from the initial price for your roof of £3000. your neighbour has given the builder her share £1500. you propose to give him £500 from your share cjard.
and assuming you rightly give him and his horse their marching orders.
And he takes his scaffold !!!!

get another firm in rebuild scaffold strip roof re-batten, leadwork, verges, retile roof as per spec...............just a thought but rather than giving him £500 for making a mess of your roof i would sue for damages.

 

[cjard]

what was your builders response when you suggested the roof may have to be stripped ?

As far as I can remember:

(In brummie accent) yerwha?

I very much doubt that, even if he does strip and relay that this guy will be capable of doing the job properly.

Heh. During the "well, alright, i'll give you 500 quid" "give me 1000" conversation he said "split the difference, and give me 800" I wanted to say "If you think splitting the difference between 500 and a grand is 800, maybe that's why the batten spacing on the rear of my house is such a pig's arse"
But I dont have that much of a desire to upset/insult people any more

i would sack him off get a decent roofer in then tell him you will give him whatever is left of his contract fee after you have paid the new roofer.
Where abouts are you CJ, I'm sure someone on here could reccomend a decent roofer in your area.

Mmm.. Given that I'm fairly handy, can stick to a spec like glue and ask a lot of questions before, during and after I reckon I could have done a better job. The only reason I didnt was that the girly did not want me up there on the roof; she'd rather pay someone else to fall off, not that I'd plan on falling off, mind..

This house is in the Lancaster area. I've been looking on the web to see if there is a service I trust, that will allow me to search for accredited roofers that adhere to some code of conduct, but it's degenerating into a mash of acronyms that seem to be (sometimes) 10 - 20 companies getting together to form a guild and say they are solving the problem of cowboy building.. blah. Some of these websites are so flawed or overly simplistic (and that's my professional opinion) that I wouldnt trust their members.. The big guns like NHBC and FMB cover many people so they seem to index more by "see if your builder is a member" rather than "find someone good to do your job", and the smaller stuff like NFRC, GoB&C, CORC; dont look trustworthy when you start reading deeper into the site.
I've taken to driving round, knocking on doors and asking people who did their roof (if it looks acceptable to me now, knowing what I know), were there any problems and was that person reliable, honest and reasonable. If anyone has any recommendations for the area, I'd love to hear them

and assuming you rightly give him and his horse their marching orders.
And he takes his scaffold !!!!

Well, sadly, he took that today which is going to make it a lot harder for the Building Inspector to come and poke at the roof. Should I buy some ladders?
Funny, a few people have complained about scaffolding being left behind and it being a nuisance; i'd love it if a contractor left the scaffold behind because it's so useful! I'd get straight up there with a spanner, take it down and get on the phone to my brother.. "So Davey, whaddya want for christmas? I got something here.."

get another firm in rebuild scaffold strip roof re-batten, leadwork, verges, retile roof as per spec...............just a thought but rather than giving him £500 for making a mess of your roof i would sue for damages.

Well, it's at that point, especially with him taking down the scaffold that I strongly suspect he'll just call me an arse and tell me to forget the 1000 quid.. So I'll have 1000 to put towards having it done properly and then (depending on how far over that it goes) I might have to think about getting a contribution from him towards it. Gonna a bitter pill for the niece to swallow. Sorry Sarah, but your uncle kinda made the roof worse, so we'll be asking you to get some of the money you apid him back so we can give it to the new roofer. Ooh, boy does this ever have the potential to turn messy. I might just pay for the overspill myself as an early birthday present to the girly, or read every reg, spec and article on it myself and take a couple of weeks out of my life to do it. Maybe I can use it as an opportunity to install some veluxes and get a loft conversion on the go.

I'm trying to be as fair as possible, and a guy at work pointed out that it was probably the most reasonable route:
You think it's arse
Your builder brother isnt exactly impartial, but he thinks it's arse
The tile company may have a minor agenda, and they think it's arse
See what an independent building inspector makes of it

To me, everybody gets a second chance; if they take a punch on the nose and then sort things out, I'll deal with them again. He really shouldnt have used the "Well, if I do all that, I'll be out of pocket on this job" line; yes mate, I'm self employed too, and that's what running a business is all about.

 

[Alastairreid]

[/quote] sadly, he took that today which is going to make it a lot harder for the Building Inspector to come and poke at the roof.

You always have your digi pics cj.

girly did not want me up there on the roof; she'd rather pay someone else to fall off, not that I'd plan on falling off, mind..

Do we ever

you have handled this sorry saga with great sensitivity and tact.......well done.

A merry xmas to you and yours cj.

 

[cjard]

Well, the building inspector's response was.. underwhelming. I'd hoped he'd come along and say "Document 7 - standards of workmanship, that roof's a turd and it wants fixing" but apparently the council's standards are quite low.. Amazing how they'll kick off if roof trusses are stored laying flat rather than stood upright, but not care about this sort of stuff.

Anyways, he said it's not good enough under the moisture regs, the flat roof, nonexistent guttering, roof felt trapped under a baton and lack of ventilation are issues.

Though "he wouldnt want his roof like that", apparently it's fine in the council's eyes to not use a guttering under the join, and use foam to stick the ridge tiles on. Similarly it's acceptable from a moisture point of view to stick roofs together with silicone - so long as it's not coming in at the time of inspection, it's fine. He's also said that the insulating wool in the loft will need upgrading to 250mm.

The insurance company said they'd get involved legally if it came to it, but said they wouldnt get involved with inspecting the roof and making sure it meets some sort of standard. They also said that if it leaked as a result of contractor incompetence, we couldnt make an insurance claim for a e.g. damaged floor, though they'd help with the legal element of pursuing the contractor.

Ends up, i'm not sure where to go with this. The work is currently unfinished in the council's eyes and I did say I wouldnt pay the builder if it wasnt approved, so right now I don't have to pay. The work required to finish is relatively trivial; I dont know if I'm in a position to insist the roof is stripped and re-laid though I think most of the roof would have to be stripped to fit the gutter that he said he would fit, between the roofs.

Anyone care to comment on what direction I should take? Right now I think I need to make a written statement of what I require doing to meet regs (and some minor amends to meet the lowest level of my satisfaction, plus repairs to items broken in the works) and present it. If it's disputed then we can argue it and if we can't reach agreement then I'll decline to pay for any of it, and do the repairs (possibly including stripping and re-laying) myself, with help from family and advice here. If he fixes everything necessary to meet regs approval then I'll have to pay for this substandard job, and see how it goes for the next 10 years? :/

 

[chappers]

Just to add another Ar5e to your list-Your building inspector.
He is responsible to ensure that roofs are laid correctly to prevent water ingress, that is part of their remit and includes things such as correect tiles for pitch and headlap etc. Ordinarily an inspector wouldn't be able to see a secret gutter but knowing there is not one there and saying that silicone is a satisfactory sealant is downright wrong.
Now that your insurance company are aware of the unsatisfactory nature of the roof and that the property is now at risk of making a claim. I would get them involved now particularly if there is some legal cover on youir insurance.
Basically they are saying now that you have highlighted the unsatisfactory nature of your roof you are not insured and that they would help you to seek damages against the roofer.Get them to help you seek damages now.
You say they won't at this stage get involved with any inspections, but you can bet your bottom dollar that when you or even worse your neighbour wants to make a claim for a leaking roof , that they will send the loss adjuster who will come armed with the info you have given them and turn down your claim. Pursue the roofer now before it is too late , in 5 years time you may need to make a claim and then it may be too late to persue the roofer as he may be dead, gone out of business or just plain impossible to track down.

 

[cjard]

Well, I can probably cross that arse off my list now; I wrote a brief mail to the planning office, pointing out that the building inspector hadnt been very emphatic about the issues I was raising. Next thing I know, I've got the building control assistant manager visiting, condemning the entire thing and saying he'll write up all the issues and mail them out. He also asked if I could send the photos and conversations in so they could go on file as theyre starting to archive evidence of poor building jobs for a variety of purposes.

If at first we don't succeed..

 

[Alastairreid]

did bc condemn the whole roof cjard?.

 

[cjard]

did bc condemn the whole roof cjard?.

Heh, if condemnation is some kind of official process whereby the council says they are going to demolish it, then no.. But unlike the BI, the BCManager listened to everything I had to say, took it a lot more seriously and said that they were all valid concerns.
He acknowledged that not all elements concern building regs but he said that there was a lot more there to complain about under various regs (including document 7) than the original BI had picked up on (that guy had basically left me with the impression that installing some vents and some gutters and it would be an OK job)..

His summary was "it's a bodge job and I wouldnt pay for it, nor even ask the guy back to remedy it; just get a roofer to make it good and come to an agreement over materials costs then pursue him for any overall loss you've suffered"

i.e. what everyone else here has said too

I think I need to read up on my legal obligations as regards offering the builder the opportunity to fix (or subcontract to fix) it, before I take that route because I havent actually had it in writing that it's OK to cut him out of the loop. I'd want to come across as as reasonable as possible if it came to court.