Scudo Van - Reverse & First Gears Difficult After New Clutch

[johnny2007]

Once upon a time I had a Fiat Punto (I know, I'm still ashamed about it) and new clutch fitted.
Same problem, 1st and reverse wouldn't engage nicely.
Problem disappear on its own after a couple of weeks and that car kept on running on the same clutch until it was scrapped 10 years later (by my neighbour. I got rid of it for a few pennies)

 

[Mottie]

I took this clutch out of a customers car a couple of years ago. She hardly used the car. To be fair, she was almost deaf so she was in the habit of pulling away at 6000 rpm! She’s given up driving now.

 

[ReganAndCarter]

Hmm. So much for one lady owner. Clutch looks like it's been attacked with an angle grinder then dropped from a height.

Reading about others who have had problems with first and reverse after new clutch makes the clutch drag diagnosis sound even more likely. Don't know if Transits and Puntos have hydraulic clutch mechanisms, but poss it was air in the fluid and it dissipated after a while. Only other thing I can think would happen is because the friction plate is only just making contact, ie. dragging, it wear away the lining after a while just enough to stop making contact. This theory is only guesswork.

 

[Burnerman]

On really awkward systems (Renault Megane for example) I have had to back bleed before.....using a clean trigger oil can filled with dot4 and a length of polythene tube on the end of the spout, connect the primed tube to the bleed nipple on the slave, open the nipple and pump the fluid in.
This car has quite a long horizontal run down the back of the engine.....hellish to get to.
John

 

[ReganAndCarter]

On really awkward systems (Renault Megane for example) I have had to back bleed before.....using a clean trigger oil can filled with dot4 and a length of polythene tube on the end of the spout, connect the primed tube to the bleed nipple on the slave, open the nipple and pump the fluid in.
This car has quite a long horizontal run down the back of the engine.....hellish to get to.
John

The garage is a Renault, Citroen and Peugeot specialist, so bearing in mind what you say about Meganes, hopefully they are the masters at bleeding difficult/awkward clutch systems. Fingers crossed!

 

[ReganAndCarter]

Took my van back to garage and they had a look. Said it was better, but when I collected it, the problem is still there. Lost faith in them. It's not undriveable, just a bit tricky with reverse and first selection and can feel 2nd is slightly notchy. Then I tried Mottie's suggestion of jamming clutch pedal down to floor with length of wood. Left it for 3 days like that, but alas no change.

Thinking about it, as it's not a concentric clutch would they have needed to disconnect it anyway? It's a normal external slave, so I imagine they just removed it from bellhousing and tie it up out the way. If it's air in the system, how would it have got in there if slave wasn't removed?

If the clutch is dragging slightly, will it get better as the clutch wears?

 

[Burnerman]

Three points, if I may.....
1) can you manually pull the clutch pedal up a bit more, once you’ve taken your foot off it?
2) when you press the pedal down, is there much free play before you feel the release mechanism operating?
3) when you are about to move off, does the clutch engage immediately the pedal leaves the floor?
John

 

[ReganAndCarter]

Thanks John. I'll have a look and report back.

 

[cdbe]

I only get my clutches done at a clutch specialist, and he will only fit OEM parts. Slightly more expensive than a back street garage but a proper 10k warranty and he has an encyclopedic knowledge of which other parts are or aren't worth replacing at the same time, eg fork, seals etc.

 

[ReganAndCarter]

Three points, if I may.....
1) can you manually pull the clutch pedal up a bit more, once you’ve taken your foot off it?
2) when you press the pedal down, is there much free play before you feel the release mechanism operating?
3) when you are about to move off, does the clutch engage immediately the pedal leaves the floor?
John

Answers to your questions;

1) No
2) 0.5"
3) No, several inches before engagement.

One other question, if a clutch is dragging slightly, will it get better as the clutch wears?

 

[Burnerman]

Unfortunately the clutch seems to be working perfectly, especially as it starts to disengage almost immediately you depress the pedal.
I’m wondering if the fitter wire brushed the splines of the first motion shaft that the friction plate slides on, but that is really clutching (!) at straws.
Is there any juddering as the clutch takes off?
John

 

[ReganAndCarter]

Unfortunately the clutch seems to be working perfectly, especially as it starts to disengage almost immediately you depress the pedal.

Thanks again, John. Just to clarify, on question 2, the 0.5" ia the end of the freeplay from clutch fully up to meeting resistance as it starts to press on the clutch mechanism. I wouldn't say it's disengaging at this point.

To me, the clutch does feel normal. It's just the resistance going into rev and 1st and notchiness of 2nd that was immediately obvious when I collected van after new clutch fitted. I don't really want to be ramming it into 1st and rev. I now do things that make 1st and rev engagement easier, eg. if I put it into 2nd before trying 1st or rev I find it slips in a bit easier. Also, as I pull up at a junction I can feed the stick into 1st as the vehicle is just coming to a stop which makes things easier than sitting in neutral with clutch up then pressing clutch down and trying to get into 1st when ready to pull away, which would be difficult.

It's made the vehicle tricky to drive and less pleasant (believe it or not, it's a good drive for a van) - but I suppose my workarounds mean I can live with it rather than poss pulling the box off again, which is quite a big job obviously.

 

[Old Salt]

Suggestions on the web include new cables and shimming. Apparently if you remove the air box you can see if there is lots of wear. Never had a Scudo so no personal knowledge.

 

[ReganAndCarter]

Suggestions on the web include new cables and shimming. Apparently if you remove the air box you can see if there is lots of wear. Never had a Scudo so no personal knowledge.

Thanks Old Salt, but I don't think it's gear cable related for 3 reasons.

First there weren't any problems engaging gears until immediately after a new clutch was installed.

Second, I can select all gears easily with the engine off, but problem there with engine running.

If I depress clutch and push gear lever forward and it won't go all the way forward into first gear - but I keep forward pressure on the stick and turn the engine off, the stick then slips in to first. Same thing happens with reverse.

 

[Burnerman]

Your selection technique works well -- although you shouldn't have to do it, obviously. What's happening is that you are causing the synchromesh within the gearbox to stop the input shaft rotating and that allows the gears to slip in.
However, the problem is in the clutch somewhere....either it's not releasing as fully as it's supposed to or the friction plate is grabbing on to the input shaft spines due to dirt, burring or other slight damage.....and that, gets us no further forward unfortunately
John