Seems we have done a complete 360 degrees in the way we get power.

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Llanfair Caereinion, Nr Welshpool
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The picture, not mine, got an award, however it seems we are returning to wind and water power, it seems odd we consider this windmill as something we must protect, and likely it is a listed building, but see the new ones, as eye sours. It really is a cool picture, pun intended, but back in the day grain had to wait for the right amount of wind. And water mills would dry up in summer.

Today we have some clever stuff, but lacks integration, if I want to wash, dry, clothes or dishes I can set a timer so it is done when I think power will be cheap. However, seems there is not a way to auto read when power is plentiful and then run a device, if I use a smart socket to power the washing machine, it will do nothing, as need to press a button to start it.

I can see on my PC today's weather, but it needs manual intervention to use the info to run a machine. Even what seems simple, my TRV will show room temperature on the PC, and my wall thermostat can be controlled from the same PC, but it takes me to transfer it info.

As to so-called smart meter, the info to my phone, is two days old, at long last getting cost, seems 23 June 2024 I spent £1.12 which raises the question is it worth doing anything to save electric. But be it British Gas app, or the luxpowertec app, the latter for the solar, it requires manual reading and for some person to use the info to manually start or stop some process. Seems no option to automate, in other words the electric meters are rather dumb. Both DNO one and solar ones, to get my DHW to heat when there is spare solar, it has its own independent wireless CT coil to tell the immersion heater controller how much to use.

We do seem to be getting some integration, google home app will read most of my smart devices, and control them, same applies to Alexa, don't know about the latter, but I know I can program to some extent using voice commands, but should be easy enough to write a program to say if any TRV shows current temperature below target temperature then run boiler. Or if this than that (IFTTT) but one may be able with some linux system, but my PC runs MS Windows.

I can't even run phone programs on my PC, tried bluestacks, like watching paint dry. Think I have found my answer
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However, seems there is not a way to auto read when power is plentiful and then run a device
That's a question for the appliance manufacturers - can you make me an appliance that integrates with <something> to draw your biggest load when power is cheapest.
I guess we'll get there in the end, but right now, the largest domestic consumers of power like immersion heaters and EVSEs have options to do this. Is it worth it for smaller appliances?
For me, I am importing at 24p/kWh and exporting at 15p/kWh, so the difference is 9p/kWh. My dishwasher uses about 2kWh on water heating in two half-hour bursts. I am sure it could be made to work fine if it delayed the heating cycles or heated more slowly to fit in the available PV power envelope. If I used it every day then that's about £66/year saving. But that's the best possible case, there are may days of the year without 2kW of excess PV available, and I don't use it every day [4-5 times a week usually]. Difficult to guess how much this would actually save me, I will take the easy option of saying "about half of the best case". £33pa over the life an appliance that is currently 6 years old is well in excess of what I reckon it would cost to add this feature. So it's probably worth adding this kind of feature.
 
The cold only fill washing machine means it is hard to use water heating at best times, and the dishwasher has always been cold only fill. The drier now uses a heat pump, but runs far longer, and if I look at the old vented model not sure the heat pump is saving anything.

With the old machine there was a switch, 1 or 2 kW, we always had it set to 1 kW, and it would take around 90 minutes to dry a load, the new heat pump model takes around 2.5 hours to dry a load, at 600 watt, so total power used not much difference. New one is better, as don't need to leave window open, and it auto senses when dry enough, but there was a vented model designed to be used overnight with a very low wattage about 500 watt, and one has to consider if the heat pump is saving the energy or simply using less heat to start with?

The temperature of the tumble drier being lower is good for the clothes, so happy it takes longer, but as to energy saving not so sure. However, the old tumble drier could be set for 90 minutes and supplied with a time clock, and would turn on and run, the new one the clock is built in, and both washing machine and tumble drier both tumble the clothes every so often until the set time. Clearly it is using power, but with the washer we use a little cup thing with the soap in, so turning the clothes means undiluted soap is put on the clothes until it starts.

But in general, automation can result in the reverse of what is intended. We don't have our outside lights on PIR's any more, one I see no point assisting intruders by lighting their way, two the darn lamps would extinguish at the most inopportune moment, hands full of shopping, halfway up the steps, and plunged into darkness. So now all smart control.

So before leaving care, google home app, click outside lights on, into house voice command hey google turn off outside lamps, so far so good, but around 7 am milk is delivered, in winter that is in the dark, so set upper outside lights Mon, Wed, Fri, Sat to turn on at 6:30 am and off at dawn, but by March getting to point where dawn is before 6:30 am so it turns on 6:30 and stays on. OK can set an off for 9 am to limit error, but so easy to have light on 24/7 as not noticed the error.

The same applies with power cuts, my Energenie smart switch's auto turn off, my smart bulbs auto turn on, only the TP-Link (Tapo) smart switches are not affected. So when home no problem, but if out when there is a power cut, come home to a home with lights on when not required and off when required.

Even the cat flap is automated, reads the chip in the cat, when are we going to be chipped so no need for keys? And father-in-law had a lovely automated garage door, press button in car, and door opened, until the socket fuse ruptured, when one needed to open the door to renew the fuse, but could not open it until the fuse has been renewed, lucky I noticed the error before a fuse had blown. Clearly would have been OK if there was a side door, but there wasn't.
 
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That's a question for the appliance manufacturers - can you make me an appliance that integrates with <something> to draw your biggest load when power is cheapest.
Quite. The thinking behind 'smart' meters will only become 'smart' if/when there is widespread deployment of 'smart appliances', which can talk to (and maybe even be controlled by) the meter - and I'm not convinced that I have personally seen even one such appliance yet, so 'widespread deployment' is something I'm probably unlikley to see in my lifetime!
 
Have you actually checked? Heat pumps are always more efficient that purely resistive heating.
That's true, but eric says that his heat-pump dryer runs for much longer - so presumably, for whatever reason, is generating a lot more heat energy than his 'traditional' dryer did!
 
Right. I meant efficient in terms of energy consumed to dry a given load, rather than in terms of time taken.
 
Right. I meant efficient in terms of energy consumed to dry a given load, rather than in terms of time taken.
Yes, I realised that, and that's what I was agreeing with you about.

However, we don't know enough to know whether eric is comparing chalk with chalk or with cheese.

I've never had a dryer with any sort of new-fangled 'sensors', so if it "ran for longer" that would be because I'd told it to run for longer,regardless of whether it needed to run that long to dry the load.

We don't know the 'powers' (power outputs) of either his heat-pump dryer or his previous one, so the former may be taking longer to dry a load because it has a lower output power. It may also be 'calling for heat less continuously' than did his previous dryer (hence more time for the sae amount of 'heat delivery') .... and, as above, it's possible that either of the dyers doesn't actually need 'as long as they run for' in order to dry the load.

... so, all sorts of cheeses which eric might be comparing with the chalk :)
 
I've always thought heat pump driers were somewhat incorrectly named, it tends to suggest that they dry in the same way as a resistive drier, with a stream of heated air that passes over the clothes and drives out the moisture, just that its been heated with a heatpump rather than an element... I'm sure they'd be better refered to as 'dehumidifier dryers' which is more descriptive of how the drying is actually acheieved.

The reverse is true in some cases, we don't call air conditioning 'air cooling' yet people tend to think only in terms of it cooling the air, when it actually has a pretty good de-humidifying effect (useful for clearing misted up windows in the car in winter) and I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that reducing humidity was pretty much a core thing of what they were invented to do, hence the air was being conditioned in a few ways, rather than just cooled.
 
I've always thought heat pump driers were somewhat incorrectly named, it tends to suggest that they dry in the same way as a resistive drier, with a stream of heated air that passes over the clothes and drives out the moisture, just that its been heated with a heatpump rather than an element...
I'd never previously heard of, let alone seen, one of theser animals,but when eric started repeatedly refering to his "heat pump air drying", I must say that I presume that is was exactly as you have just described.
I'm sure they'd be better refered to as 'dehumidifier dryers' which is more descriptive of how the drying is actually acheieved.
Interesting. So are you saying that they just 'dehumidify', by condensing the water vapour in 'cold' (ambient temp) air, without any 'heated air' being involved?
The reverse is true in some cases, we don't call air conditioning 'air cooling' yet people tend to think only in terms of it cooling the air, when it actually has a pretty good de-humidifying effect ....
I can believe that they are 'quite good at dehumidifying', but that is surely not the primary mode of action (nor, as below,not necessarily any part of the mode of action) - i.e. an aircon system will happily cool air (by behaving as an 'inside out fridge) even if that air is totally dry (zero humidity), won't it? If so, it would not really be appropriate to talk, or think, of it as primarily a dehumidifier, would it?
 
The tumble dryer uses energy in two ways, one to dry the air and the other to tumble the clothes. There must be a point where using less energy to dry is counted out by using more energy to tumble.

However, cooling the air to remove the moisture one would think would work better than simply using fresh air all the time, but it would depend on how dry that fresh air was.

In my case, the fresh air was being drawn from outside rather than from the house, so the humidity of the air in the dryer was likely lower than the humidity of the air in most homes, so in my case the vented dryer was working in near ideal conditions, where in many homes we need to consider that it is taking central heated air and super heating it, and throwing it away outside, so my obversions may not be reflected in other homes.

As said the vented dryer had no humidity sensor, it was put on for 90 minutes, and if clothes not dry, put on a second time, in the main they were dry, but it means one can't be sure if dried to same level.

Also, I have noted with some loads the heat pump dryer uses a mark/space ratio, and the heat pump is not running all the time the clothes are being tumbled.

However, in general, the heat pump dryer takes 150 minutes at 650 watt, and the vented took 90 minutes at 1020 watt, so the power saved is not that much, if any, but using the heat pump dryer has allowed the window to be closed, and although the utility room was not heated, it has got warmer with the window closed, and so has the kitchen, and the black mould on the walls has gone. So all in all, the heat pump dryer is doing a better job, but not to the level one was led to believe it would.

And since now in the main using the sun to dry the clothes, as tend to use the dryer when solar panels are exporting, running costs have reduced, the problem is to get it running early enough so it has completed before the solar production has started to reduce, so it is using power from the battery, so latter that evening we are using grid power earlier.

I only have a 3.2 kWh battery, this time of year that is enough to ensure still 10% left at 1 am when battery set to recharge, Also I often stop importing at 5 am and likely I could stop earlier and still the solar in morning will take over before I hit again the 10% this 1719619084095.pngfrom yesterday shows the three dips in the battery state, one before 1 am, one around 7:30 am, and finally one at end of day, my wife had dishwasher, washing machine and tumble dryer on during the off-peak, and the tumble dryer had not completed when off-peak finished, So it was running off the battery until the solar took over. And solar production was not that high anyway.Go back to day before, 1719619488228.pngand the morning dip was far less, and this is the problem with off-peak and solar, instead of it making life better, we become slaves to the sun and off-peak times, I suppose we become sun worshippers, watching the weather like a sailor!

If we could automate when the three main appliances turned on, it would be better, a signal from smart meter to say exporting, like we got to switch on economy seven storage heaters. But it seems we are going backwards, there is no signal from the smart meter we can use, And the phone app is a day behind. In other words, the smart meter is now dumb, compared with the old white meter.

The same applies to many other devices, we can see how we should be able to automate, but as it stands, we need a human to read the info, and use it, I can at my PC see the room temperatures sent to me by the TRV heads, and I can turn on my boiler if the rooms are too cool, but I have to manually do this, I clearly made a mistake getting Nest Gen 3, had I got Drayton Wiser it could have been automated, but there is no integration between makes of smart devices other than Google Nest Mini's and Alexa. And that required voice control, and the Nest Mini can behave like a mischievous little boy at times, I have said living room main with a little too much gap between living room and main.

Instead of the automation devices serving us humans, us humans seem to be serving the automation devices. When I bought this house I noted the bus goes past the door, but it doesn't due it seems to parked cars, there is no where safe to leave my bike at the bus stop, so I go to the station instead where my bike is safe, everyone knows me, So last Friday went to Welshpool in evening for a drink, not by bus, using an internal combustion engine, but by train using an external combustion engine (steam) one as somewhere to park bike, and two there was no bus into Welshpool at 6:30 pm and back at 10:30 pm, train was the only option, and since the beer festival was at Welshpool heritage train station, suited me anyway. But when a volunteer run heritage train gives a better service to the bus, one has to ask what has gone wrong?
 
The tumble dryer uses energy in two ways, one to dry the air and the other to tumble the clothes. There must be a point where using less energy to dry is counted out by using more energy to tumble.
With a traditional tumble dryer, I would think the energy used to do the tumbling is very trivial in comparison with that used to generate heat.
However, cooling the air to remove the moisture one would think would work better than simply using fresh air all the time, ....
Again, traditional dryers do not use just 'fresh air', they use very hot 'fresh air'.
However, in general, the heat pump dryer takes 150 minutes at 650 watt, and the vented took 90 minutes at 1020 watt, so the power saved is not that much, if any, ...
Per my last post, you're surely by just looking at those times and 'appliance powers', you're comparing chalk and cheese, aren't you. Let's face it, in your very previous sentence you told us ...
Also, I have noted with some loads the heat pump dryer uses a mark/space ratio, and the heat pump is not running all the time the clothes are being tumbled.
... if the 'heat pump dryer' does that, but the traditional one,say, heated air for most/all of the time, that could explain a very significant difference in energy consumptions, couldn't it?
 
Interesting. So are you saying that they just 'dehumidify', by condensing the water vapour in 'cold' (ambient temp) air, without any 'heated air' being involved?

My understanding is, that even though the air does get warmed moderatly, the heating is not the primary mode of drying. As far as I know these things run a refrigeration unit with the hot and cold sides two separate compartments, air is passed over the hot side, warming it slightly and increasing its ability to hold moisture, it is then blown through the clothes and ends up taking on water and becomming humid, its then immediatly passed into the cold side where the temperature is reduced to below its dew point and the water drops out and is collected, the cycle then can start again. Its not so much sucking heat out the room to provide drying heat, as maintaining a sufficient temperature differential inside itself
 
Monday Aug 28 all.jpg

The power meter only shows an hour so this is stitched, and shows typical drying cycle of the heat pump dryer, as said some times it does a mark/space ration
Tuesday 1 all small load.jpg
typically with a small load, this shows the power used to turn the drum, around 200 watt, which although not high, when it uses only 600 watt to turn and dry, it is still a fair load in comparison. We are using 400 watt to dry, and 200 watt to tumble the load. The meter at moment is monitoring the freezer, so these are from last year.

I did not use the monitor on the old tumble dryer, so can't compare, however with the old unit I could spin the drum by hand, handy to ensure nothing stuck to drum, but the new one, can't hand turn the drum.

The problem is without a meter on the socket, we can't know how much is used, time running does not equal power used, with the freezer which is never turned off I can see the average used 1719647275979.png and hourly use 1719647327944.png but this does not help with a tumble dryer. As to cost, very hard to work out, at moment still have not got the export sorted out, but at long last the phone app is showing £, 1719647745054.png not sure I believe it however, that zero use area does not seem right. This 1719647933854.png daily use seems better, one removed standing charge the £1.34 for power used is not really that high, and one has to question if all the effort to keep cost down is really worth it?

Last Friday I went into town 8 miles away to have an evening drink, clearly don't want to use car, and 8 mile means taxi gets expensive, but there is no bus service, I had to use a heritage train, took me in at 6:30 pm and arrived back at 11:30 pm approx, but if I look at how many on the train, 4 carriages but only one used, rest had no lights, so no more than 20, and the engine sat in Welshpool in steam waiting for us, not asked how much coal used, but bet a lot more CO2 than a mini bus would have used, it was all part of the day out, I did not manage to sample all the beers, ciders, on draft, or the gin, and it was unusual to travel on a night train, and see the sparks fly, felt sorry for our Canadian driver, coming all the way from Isle of man, then could not drink, but not like a diesel, can't turn it off for 3 hours, it had to be kept in steam.

Living here we seem to be 60 years behind rest of UK with some things. Glad I moved here.
 
My understanding is, that even though the air does get warmed moderatly, the heating is not the primary mode of drying. As far as I know these things run a refrigeration unit with the hot and cold sides two separate compartments, air is passed over the hot side, warming it slightly and increasing its ability to hold moisture, it is then blown through the clothes and ends up taking on water and becomming humid, its then immediatly passed into the cold side where the temperature is reduced to below its dew point and the water drops out and is collected,
Fair enough, but isn't that essentially the same as how a heat pump would be used to heat the whole of a house, the 'dehumidifying' being a very welcome additional benefit when used for drying ?

A dryer could presumably work with no deliberate heating of air, but simply by drawing humid ambient-temp air over something made cold by the machine in order to condense the water vapour - i.e. what most 'dehumidifiers' do?
 

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