Shower Drama - Please help!!

[diddly4u]

Hi guys,
Great forum! I'm hoping someone here can help me out? It first has to be said that I know nothing about plumbing...I'm a computer tech.
I bought a shower from B&Q...the innocence P shaped enclosure with shower tower.....it has hydrotherapy jets on it. I was told, that on a gravity fed system (which I have) all I would need is a pump to increase the preasure (1.5 bar min needed to run the tower).
I have now had 3 different plumbers in to quote for fitting, and 3 differing opinions on what I need to run it!!
One says I need to change to a combi boiler.....one says I need to replace the whole heating system with a sealed system???? The other says I need to install another tank to feed the shower seperately.
This is fast turning into an expensive nightmare!!

So, is there any way to fit some kind of inline heating device between the cold mains and the shower....some sort of instant heat thing like on electric showers?? If so, where would I get one?
Is it possible to use the unit from a power shower and rig it to the shower tower? I have a gas heating system, but don't mind using electric to run the shower.....it sounds cheaper than a new system!!
By the way, I'm in a bungalow, hot water tank is in the loft, so I can't get it any higher to increase the preasure. Mains on street is 3 bar, and in house just over 2 bar, if that's any help.

If you need any more info, please ask, as I'm not sure what you need to know to answer the questions.
I would be very grateful if anyone could shed light on this for me, I'm at my wits end.....I'm going to take a laptop to bits & repair it now....IT'S EASIER!!!!

Thanks.

 

[mogget]

The problem you're facing is that this kind of shower will empty a standard hot water cylinder very quickly!

Probably the simplest way would be to replace the hot water cylinder with a larger fast-recovery one. The cold water cistern in the attic would probably need replacing with a larger one too. Obviously a pump would be required.

Unfortunately there's no easy (ie, cheap) solution.

What boiler do you have, and are there any motorised valves on the system?

 

[diddly4u]

There are no motorised valves on the system to my knowledge. I'm told the boiler is vented? It says Ideal Mexico 2 on it if that helps, it's around 16 years old.
Would changing to a combi boiler sort the problem? Would it run the shower ok or would I still need a pump fitted as well?

Sorry for all the questions, I just want the advise so I don't get stiffed in this process!!

Thanks for your reply

 

[mogget]

If you change to a combi, you'll be dependant on the mains supply, which would have to be very good to run this sort of shower.

It's fine to stick with your vented system, but the cylinder and tank will need changing unless they're already large enough.

If the system is gravity HW / pumped CH, you should switch to a fully pumped system in order to reheat the new cylinder in a reasonable time. Note that 'gravity' in this instance refers to a HW circuit that is not pumped, ie circulation by convection between the boiler and cylinder.

So, in short -

Keep existing boiler
Upgrade to fully pumped if not already
New hot water cylinder
New cold water cistern
Fit shower pump

One thing to check would be that there are two tanks in the attic, a big one and a littler one. If there's only one then the pipework may need re-doing for the new cylinder.

 

[diddly4u]

Cheers.....There are 2 tanks in the loft....1 hot (closed cylinder) and 1 cold (big black plastic).
Is there any way you can tell me how big is "big enough"? Also, how do I measure what "really good preasure" is?
Is that flow rate, or do I need to buy something to measure bar preasure?
God this is confusing!!! The cold water tap in the existing bath seems strong, but the hot tap very weak. Right now, the shower is one of those that comes from a connection in the middle of the 2 bath taps, and is only good if you like cold showers!!
The hot water tank seems to heat back up very rapidly.....but probably not quick enough to replace the water taken by a heavy shower, I suppose.
Do you think replacing the tanks and putting in a pumping system would be cheaper than putting in a combi? (supposing the preasure is good enough)

Thanks again for all your help

 

[mogget]

If you're fitting a big shower with body jets, i'd say it's best to stick with a vented-tank-and-pump system, and not a combi. (no doubt bigburner will come along and say different )

With a vented hot water system, you're using stored water so the mains pressure is largely academic.

What I'm not sure about is your existing setup - can you answer a few more questions?

- Is the hot water cylinder split into two compartments with a lid?
- What are the approximate dimensions of the cold water cistern (tank)
- Is the cold water tank raised above the hot water cylinder?
- Are there any other smallish plastic tanks anywhere?
- Is there anything that looks like this anywhere?...

Untitled

• mogget
• 24 Feb 2009
• 2

... and last, does the word 'primatic' mean anything to you?

 

[diddly4u]

Ok.....just had a crawl around in the loft!!

The hot water cylinder is not split, nor does it have a lid, it appears to be a closed metal cylinder with pipes going into it.(about 1m tall & approx 46cm across)
The bottom of the cold water tank (54 X 96 X 59cm approx) is only just higher than the top of the hot water one, but not directly above it....they are at opposite ends of the house in fact, some 30 to 35 ft apart.

Right next to the cold water tank is a smaller plastic tank, which looks as tho it may be an overflow??? (37 X 49 X 34cm approx).
Unless the things in the picture are hidden under flooring, then I can't find anything that looks like them.
I have no idea what primatic means, so please enlighten me!!

 

[swidders]

The smaller tank is the feed and expansion tank for your central heating.

From the dimensions you give, mogget's 7.47pm post provides good advice, but it looks like you may not need a new cold water tank, nor a cylinder.

She was referring to "primatic" to try to understand why there was no FE tank for your central heating, which you have now discovered there is.

 

[mogget]

'Primatic' is an old style of system which takes the central heating water from the hot water cylinder - fortunately we've just established that is not what you have

The large plastic tank is the cold water storage cistern - this supplies water to the bottom of the hot water cylinder, which is always full of water, but sometimes empty of heat! The cold water flowing into the bottom of the cylinder pushes hot water out of the top, and onward to the hot taps.

The small plastic tank is the feed and expansion tank for the central heating. The water in the heating and hot water circuits is separate from the water supply system. The heated water from the boiler flows inside a copper coil in the hot water cylinder, gives up its heat, and goes back to the boiler for another turn around. This small tank keeps the heating system topped up.

The horizontal distance between the cold tank and cylinder will be a problem, it's like rolling a ball along a gentle slope rather than a steep one - the water will be very sluggish flowing through a 22mm or even 28mm pipe and this will limit the flow. At the very least the cold water cistern will need to be close to the cylinder, and entirely above it. Preferably the new hot water cylinder would be on the floor below, or even the ground floor.

I'm still trying to work out whether you have a fully pumped system, more questions!

- Can you switch on the radiators without switching the hot water on?
- How many pumps

Untitled

• mogget
• 24 Feb 2009
• 2

are on the system?

Swidders - I've just clicked preview and saw you posted, but rather than edit I'll just post in full.

 

[diddly4u]

Ok, thanks for that!! I didn't realise that the smaller tank was there till just now

So do you think I would get away with just a pump then? Without freezing my behind off after 4 mins, that is? If so, any ideas on which kind to buy? As in power I would need etc? Would I need a positive or negative head? (I've seen both, but unsure of the difference)
It's such a nightmare.....I only want a shower because I've been diagnosed with rheumatoid athritis, and the bath is going to be difficult!!
I just didn't realise it was going to be this much bother, I really wish they would give more advise at source....b4 they take your money

I can't thank you all enough for all your time and effort,
Cheers [/img]

 

[Bambergaspipe]

If you change to a combi, you'll be dependant on the mains supply, which would have to be very good to run this sort of shower.

No better than the incoming mains on any other property. At 3 bar your pressure is excellent.

So, in short -
Keep existing boiler

Don`t.. a good sized combi will do the job fine.

Get advice from someone who understands Kilowatts.

 

[diddly4u]

I'm still trying to work out whether you have a fully pumped system, more questions!

- Can you switch on the radiators without switching the hot water on?
- How many pumps

Untitled

• mogget
• 24 Feb 2009
• 2

are on the system?

Hi,
Thanks for the explanation, that's great
I can't run the radiators without the hot water turned on....but I can heat the water without the radiators, if that makes sense??
As for pumps.....ehhhh......could you give me a clue as to where I would look for them?? Are the part of the boiler, or something else

Thanks

 

[swidders]

Swidders - I've just clicked preview and saw you posted, but rather than edit I'll just post in full.

No problem - was just butting in trying to save you a bit of time.

In view of the information from the op about only having a shower (no bath), would a combi potentially be a better solution, depending on mains pressure and available flow rate?

Would be easier for the op to keep an eye on, esp if climbing up into the loft, to check, may becomes increasingly problematic as time progresses? My father was diagnosed with similar, and it did slow him down over the years and he became less agile.

 

[diddly4u]

Hi to swidders,
You're right, something I don't have to do a lot of clambering around for would be excellent.....I just had great difficulty getting the info I did from the loft!!
As for the earlier comment from someone about where the hot water tank is.....as I said in my first post, I live in a bungalow.....there is only ground floor & loft as a choice.....and I can't think where I could put a tank that size or bigger in the house itself, without losing a room!!

As I said earlier, I'm told the water is at 3 bar in the street, but somewhere over 2 in the house.....I have no idea if this is considered good bad or indifferent as supplies go, unfortunately, or if it's enough to run a 1.5 bar min. shower tower from a combi boiler.

All these questions and more......tune in for the next thrilling installment of "Oh God, I need Help!"
Thanks all

 

[Bambergaspipe]

I have no idea if this is considered good bad or indifferent as supplies go, unfortunately, or if it's enough to run a 1.5 bar min. shower tower from a combi boiler.

Yeah, it is, like I said.