Single Phase / Three Phase supply

[PaulieV]

Hi there,

I was wondering if someone could help me. I have spoke with a couple of electricians and UK Power Network and slightly confused.

I have bought a shop that has a maisonette above. The idea is to split the Maisonette above to 2 x 1bed flats. One will be powered on electric (water powered via direct unvented cylinder) and the other will be GCH.

I will also need a landlords supply for the communal hall way, to get a fire alarm system and Automatic Open Vent installed - along with lighting.

Currently, I do not have the intention of doing anything to the shop - this will eventually be converted to a flat, but in couple years time.

The main supply is in the shop, which powers the building. It states the following:

100a BS 1361 Type 2B / Connected to a PME System.

The meter states: Single Phase Watt Hour Meter, Property of London Power Network (2002) - there are four cables coming out of this.

My question is: would this be enough power for what I am currently proposing (2x1beds and landlord connection) and to get UKPN to move this to the communal hall way, get the utility provider to install individual meters and then an electrician to do their part?

Or is this a ridiculous question and UKPN would need to upgrade this to a three phase fuse?

Thank you

 

[JohnD]

The meter states: Single Phase Watt Hour Meter

Is there any reason to suppose you have a three phase supply?

there are four cables coming out of this.

Do you mean two going in, and two coming out, totalling four?

The main supply is in the shop, which powers the building. It states the following:

...BS 1361...

BS1361 does not refer to the supply. It refers to the consumer unit.

 

[PaulieV]

Hi Jeremy,

Thank you for your response

I would of thought it should of had a three phase previously - as there is a shop and maisonette above (previously before my ownership - they used the maisonette as a house share many years ago) so would of thought whoever owned it would of needed a three phase as a minimum to power the whole building - seems that they got away with using just this

The wires going into the bottom of the meter are: red, grey, blue, brown - if that means anything

Many thanks

 

[EFLImpudence]

would have...should have...would have

Yes, it is important.

 

[PaulieV]

would have...should have...would have

Yes, it is important.

I initially read this as if you where quoting the "would'a could'a should'a" line and then realised it was due to my poor grammar.

Thank you for all your responses

 

[JohnW2]

I would of thought it should of had a three phase previously - as there is a shop and maisonette above (previously before my ownership - they used the maisonette as a house share many years ago) so would of thought whoever owned it would of needed a three phase as a minimum to power the whole building - seems that they got away with using just this

Yes, one might have expected either a 3-phase supply or separate single-phase supplies for the shop and maisonette - but that clearly is not what you have.

I would think that what you need now is the same as I've just said one might have expected in the past - i.e. either a 3-phase supply or two or more separate single-phase supplies.

If you were to get a 3-phase supply, you would get a 3-phase meter which recorded the total usage, with no way of knowing 'who had used how much', so also a single bill for that total - so (even if each flat were supplied by a different phase) you would presumably then have to install your own metering for each of the flats, and then recover the cost of electricity usage from the occupiers of those flats.

Kind Regards, John

 

[PaulieV]

Hi John,

Thanks for explaining this and my apologies for referring to you as Jeremy before

So if I am understanding this - three phase supply comes with 1 x three phase meter - accounting for the overall electricity consumption of the property

If I wanted to have each flat accountable for their own electricity costs - ask for two new single phase connections installed (instead of an upgrade and leave the current single one alone in the shop), so they can then have their own single phase meters put in?

Many thanks

 

[JohnW2]

Hi John, Thanks for explaining this and my apologies for referring to you as Jeremy before

No problem - I actually hadn't even noticed!

So if I am understanding this - three phase supply comes with 1 x three phase meter - accounting for the overall electricity consumption of the property

Indeed - as I said.

If I wanted to have each flat accountable for their own electricity costs - ask for two new single phase connections installed (instead of an upgrade and leave the current single one alone in the shop), so they can then have their own single phase meters put in?

That's one approach. The occupants of the flats would not have to have "their own single-phase meters put in", since the new single-phase supplies would obviously 'come with' meters.

However, I think you need to look into this carefully - it's possible that having two additional supplies would cost appreciably more than having the one supply upgraded to 3-phase (although, as I said, the latter would require some separate ('private') metering of supplies to the flats).

Kind Regards, John

 

[Ragnar_AT]

Having a dedicated supply to each flat might save some legal headaches in the future though (keeping the private meters calibrated, etc.). Any non-payment debates would be between the electricity supplier and the tenant rather than between the tenant and you.

 

[Murdochcat]

A single phase 100 (maximum) supply is unlikely to be adequate for retail unit, communal electrics and 2 flats.

Investigating now to have 3 phase is probably the right thing to do. Your DNO should be able to tell you if it’s possible and how much it would cost.

 

[Ragnar_AT]

The point is you need a 3 phase head but single phase supplies for each unit should be fine. How many main fuses are there right now?

 

[PaulieV]

Hi Ragnar, thanks for your response.

From my uneducated understanding - it looks like one fuse. The property was quite rundown when I took it over and the shop had been closed for a while

 

[PaulieV]

However, it seems that there are two consumer units - one serving the first floor, one serving the loft - both connected to this?

 

[JohnW2]

The point is you need a 3 phase head but single phase supplies for each unit should be fine. How many main fuses are there right now?

If one told the DNO that one wanted three separate supplies for the building then, in physical terms, I imagine they would very probably install a 3-phase head (assuming that there is currently only a single-phase one) - and supplier(s) could then install one single-phase meter for each phase - hence three separate accounts, meters and standing charges/bills.

Of course, if one told a supplier that one wanted a 3-phase supply (one account, one standing charge and one bill) they would then presumably install a 3-phase meter - but the OP would then have to arrange sub-metering (and recovery of charges!) for each of the flats.

 

[JohnW2]

From my uneducated understanding - it looks like one fuse.

From what you've told us, that would seem probable. Could you perhaps provide a photo?