Socket in a cupboard

[ban-all-sheds]

What's daft?

Saying that a tool is not a tool because you don't like what you can do with it seems pretty daft to me.

Context and implications are completely irrelevant right now, and will remain so until you allow us to move on by saying whether you consider these to be tools:

 

[JohnW2]

What's daft?

What's daft?... this whole argument that, for some inexplicable reason, you've decided to embark upon. I presume that you must have time on your hands!

To be serious, what worries me, given that this is a DIY forum, is that your semantic argument is attempting to set the scene for saying that a standard door handle, or anything like it, would be adequate to satisfy requirements for protecting people against a risk of electric shock by having live parts only accessible 'by use of a tool'. IMO, to even put such an idea in people's minds is irresponsible. There are plenty of other semantic issues you could have fun with, without potentially putting lives at risk.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

What's daft?

What's daft?... this whole argument that, for some inexplicable reason, you've decided to embark upon.

Shall we take it then that you have decided you'd rather not say whether you consider the items above tools?

To be serious, what worries me, given that this is a DIY forum, is that your semantic argument is attempting to set the scene for saying that a standard door handle, or anything like it, would be adequate to satisfy requirements for protecting people against a risk of electric shock by having live parts only accessible 'by use of a tool'.

What live parts?

This was all about a socket in a cupboard.

IMO, to even put such an idea in people's minds is irresponsible. There are plenty of other semantic issues you could have fun with, without potentially putting lives at risk.

IMO dumbing down discussions for fear of what the hard of thinking might take from them is what the plumbers do.

I got called out to look at a switch that was tripping the RCD...customer had installed the new brushed steel switch exactly as it was wired before!!!apart from wiring a live wire into the earth terminal on the back of the mounting plate...scary thing was he telling me how his 3 year old son liked to play with the switches...scary s**t

You see, there are people out there who should not be allowed access to screwdrivers.

The only way to make this site safe no matter what level of ****wittedness some of its readers possess would be to shut it down.

 

[big-all]

ok can we say the meaning off tool in this respect is prevent use when not safe to do so and leave it at that otherwise you will have a 300 page addendum to the regs stating which items are meant by "tool"

 

[JohnW2]

What's daft?

What's daft?... this whole argument that, for some inexplicable reason, you've decided to embark upon.

Shall we take it then that you have decided you'd rather not say whether you consider the items above tools?

No, you shouldn't take that. You should take it that, regardless of what you, I or anyone else think should be a consdered to be a tool, I consider this whole semantic discussion to be silly, unhelpful, irrelevant and potentially irresponsible and dangerous to the less-well-informed in the context of electrical matters.

Kind Regards, John

 

[stillp]

I've been scouring various standards for a definition of 'tool', but the best I can come up with is the definition of an enclosed electrical operating area: "room or location for electrical equipment to which access is intended to be restricted to skilled or instructed persons by the opening of a door or the removal of a barrier by the use of a key or tool and which is clearly marked by appropriate warning signs".
It is clear from the above that the tool, like the key, is intended to restrict access to skilled or instructed persons, assuming that only they have access to the key or tool.
I don't think a door handle, unless it has an integral lock, would meet this intent.

 

[JohnW2]

...It is clear from the above that the tool, like the key, is intended to restrict access to skilled or instructed persons, assuming that only they have access to the key or tool. I don't think a door handle, unless it has an integral lock, would meet this intent.

I would say that you're being fairly modest by saying "I don't think...". It's surely quite obvious that an accessible door handle, alone, cannot possibly satisfy any requirements for restricting access to anything; about the only people denied access would be unconscious ones - even quadraplegics might be able to operate the handle with their head! Similarly with electrical accessories and enclosures - I don't think anyone but BAS would think that the requirement for them not to be openable 'without use of a tool' could be satisfied by having a simple accessible lever which 'opened' them!

Kind Regards, John

 

[securespark]

As I understood it from my conversation with Paul Cook of the IET, sockets were made allowable in bathrooms to come in line with Europe, albeit they allow theirs much closer to water sources.

 

[echoes]

tool clicky

 

[JohnW2]

tool clicky

I've been waiting for someone to post something like that - but why is the most obvious 'urban' definition of 'tool' not there?!

Kind Reards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

No, you shouldn't take that. You should take it that, regardless of what you, I or anyone else think should be a consdered to be a tool, I consider this whole semantic discussion to be silly, unhelpful, irrelevant and potentially irresponsible and dangerous to the less-well-informed in the context of electrical matters.

And I consider you to be scared and running away and doing anything you can to avoid answering the question.

Care to tell us what the definition of 'tool' is in BS 7671?

And will you please stop trying to hide behind the skirts of the mentally feeble - I WILL NOT go along with any attempts to censor what anybody says on the grounds that some people too thick to deal with it might harm themselves. We are giving opinions, not instructions, not permissions. Whoever decides that a socket in a cupboard with a door opened by a handle is OK is making his own decision and is responsible for it.

 

[JohnW2]

As I understood it from my conversation with Paul Cook of the IET, sockets were made allowable in bathrooms to come in line with Europe, albeit they allow theirs much closer to water sources.

That's credible - and if it's true, perhaps the IET were very clever in doing enough to keep Europe happy without making hardly any difference to what was allowed in the UK! As discussed yesterday, the 3m rule effectively means that sockets are still not allowed in the vast majority of UK bathrooms!

Kind Reards, John