Space behind illuminated bathroom mirror

[JohnW2]

One question - is the basin in place already?

It is. Why do you ask?

 

[EFLImpudence]

It is. Why do you ask?

As the basin is there already, why not hang a mirror above it to hide the unsightly work?

 

[JohnW2]

Another ';interesting' question! .... How does this work with ;'safe' (aka dangerous!) zones?

Strictly speaking, a back box in which no cables are terminated (e.g.one as you suggest, with a cable just 'passing through') does not create a safe zone and,in any event, my 'accessory' will no longer be visible if/when a mirror is installed.

I will install the cable in what would be a safe zone if the back box created one, but how ('strictly speaking') is one meant to handle this situation? The mirror, per se, presumably does not create (enormous) safe zones?

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

As the basin is there already, why not hang a mirror above it to hide the unsightly work?

Good point - and that would still be true even if the basin were not yet there!

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

That's obviously a possibility. However, the feed will be coming from a lighting circuit which is ('as the cable flies') a good few metres from the mirror position, and I wouldn't normally use flex for that.

...but you could.

.... just as for, say, a hard-wired cooker, the final bit of cable is obviously flex, but I would not run flex all the way back to the origin of the circuit.

...but you could.

Yes, that could be done but, as above only if I used flex all the way back to wherever i was getting the feed from. Would you do that?

Yes.

I wouldn't say that it is all that unusual to have hard-wired loads fed by a short length of cable (usually flex) from a nearby 'connector' of some sort, is it?> In fact, at least some of the wall lights in my house have such ';local connectors'

Maybe by necessity.

Would you fit a back box for a new shaver light?

 

[EFLImpudence]

Another ';interesting' question! .... How does this work with ;'safe' (aka dangerous!) zones?

Strictly speaking, a back box in which no cables are terminated (e.g.one as you suggest, with a cable just 'passing through') does not create a safe zone and,in any event, my 'accessory' will no longer be visible if/when a mirror is installed.

Connect the CPC.

I will install the cable in what would be a safe zone if the back box created one, but how ('strictly speaking') is one meant to handle this situation? The mirror, per se, presumably does not create (enormous) safe zones?

I would say the mirror with a light creates a safe zone for its entire width.

With just an ordinary mirror in place, it would not. If that worries you, what about a label?

 

[flameport]

1 - there are a vast number of mirrors, cabinets and variants available, all with differing sizes, spaces, cable connection locations and the rest.

2 - If the mirror doesn't yet exist and it's imperative to get this cable into place before the mirror is obtained, then fit a 25mm single gang metal box flush in the wall at a height just below where the top of the mirror will be, so that when installed, the mirror/cabinet covers the box completely.
Cable should be a 3C&E, with switched line, permanent line, neutral and CPC.

3 - For temporary purposes, attach suitable connectors to the end of the cable and fit a blank plate over.

4 - When the mythical mirror cabinet eventually arrives there are multiple choices.
Most better cabinets (which cost £400+) have the electrical controls and connections in a compartment at the top. Some may have a flex connected, others not. In any event, it's either bring the 3C&E into the back of the cabinet and make connections inside, or connect the flex into the flush box as previously installed and connect in there.

A plate can be fitted over the box, or if the mirror is screwed to the wall and can't be removed without tools, the box can be left open and the cabinet back form the enclosure.

Cheapo tat from the likes of B&Q and Wayfair often have permanently attached flex in an inconvenient place and no space behind. Fortunately those usually have a back made from Foamex or similar, so it's possible and inevitable to cut and modify that as required.

However even better cabinets may need some modifications or alterations as far as electrical connections go, so having tools available to cut timber, MDF and metal is essential. So is a supply of appropriate cable glands, grommets and so on.
Then there are those other modifications such as relocating sensor switches to alternative locations, or deleting unwanted and non-compliant shaver outlets. There are also cabinets which do not have any lights where you will need to obtain and install the light(s) for it separately. Or remove manky old halogen affairs and install new LED.

 

[JohnW2]

Connect the CPC.

To do that I would have to dissect out the CPC from the flex which was passing through. I think it's probably stretching things to say that would constitute "connecting the cable to a point, accessory or switchgear" and, in any event, it would be pretty meaningless (in terms of creating a safe zone), anyway, since the accessory would not be visible once the mirror was in place.

I would say the mirror with a light creates a safe zone for its entire width.

Hmmm. Do you really believe that a mirror with a light counts as a "point, accessory or switchgear", because I don't think I would. Do yiu believe that, for example, a massive TV on a wall creates massive safe zones, both horizontally and vertically?

With just an ordinary mirror in place, it would not. If that worries you, what about a label?

I'm not in the slightest worried, but it seemed like an 'interesting' regulatory point for discussion. I actually think that, in many situations, these 'safe zones' are really a joke -particularly when (as is my case) one is dealing with a cable (particularly flex) dangling 'somewhere' within a stud wall!

 

[JohnW2]

1 - there are a vast number of mirrors, cabinets and variants available, all with differing sizes, spaces, cable connection locations and the rest.

So it seems. Although a few people have offered opinions, maybe my question about whether it was 'likely' that there would be space behind is not one that can be easily answered!

2 - If the mirror doesn't yet exist and it's imperative to get this cable into place before the mirror is obtained, then fit a 25mm single gang metal box flush in the wall at a height just below where the top of the mirror will be, so that when installed, the mirror/cabinet covers the box completely.
Cable should be a 3C&E, with switched line, permanent line, neutral and CPC.
3 - For temporary purposes, attach suitable connectors to the end of the cable and fit a blank plate over.
....
A plate can be fitted over the box, or if the mirror is screwed to the wall and can't be removed without tools, the box can be left open and the cabinet back form the enclosure.

As you presumably understand, that is my current plan/intention. I don't think we are likely to be talking about cabinets.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

To do that I would have to dissect out the CPC from the flex which was passing through.

I wasn't referring to a cable passing through; I was referring to your situation - of course.

I think it's probably stretching things to say that would constitute "connecting the cable to a point, accessory or switchgear" and, in any event, it would be pretty meaningless (in terms of creating a safe zone), anyway, since the accessory would not be visible once the mirror was in place.

Then people will have to rely on something else.
Might anyone seeing an illuminated mirror think there is without doubt a cable somewhere?

Hmmm. Do you really believe that a mirror with a light counts as a "point, accessory or switchgear",

Yes. If not where do you draw the line?
A shaver/light surely is so how wide or high is allowed.

because I don't think I would.

Ok. Perhaps that is why this thread is such hard work.

Do yiu believe that, for example, a massive TV on a wall creates massive safe zones, both horizontally and vertically?

Given that 'safe zone' refers to an area where people think there might be buried cables, how can you not believe that?

I'm not in the slightest worried, but it seemed like an 'interesting' regulatory point for discussion. I actually think that, in many situations, these 'safe zones' are really a joke -particularly when (as is my case) one is dealing with a cable (particularly flex) dangling 'somewhere' within a stud wall!

Ok.
I think it depends what one thinks 'safe zone' means.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Although a few people have offered opinions, maybe my question about whether it was 'likely' that there would be space behind is not one that can be easily answered!

Well, of course it can't be answered - easily or otherwise.

If everyone said it was 'likely' all mirrors had a space behind, what good would that be?
If you then found one that hadn't, you would be the first to let us know but the answer would still be correct.

 

[Murdochcat]

Yes, but that is your opinion and/or experience, not necessarily shared by everyone else

Who said anything about opinion?

My post is based on fitting a considerable amount supplied by numerous suppliers over many years

What don’t you understand?

And if you think you should leave a cable in a back box, in a bathroom without a blank covering it, I really don’t think you should be doing this work

 

[SUNRAY]

Is not the simple thing to bury a plastic conduit in the wall to the lowest likely point of the new mirror and after measuring the position very accurately plaster it over and decorate. Then if/when you decide to fit a device requiring power;chop into the unblemished wall and into the conduit at an appropriate height and pull a suitable cable, T&E or flex, into place.

 

[JohnW2]

I wasn't referring to a cable passing through; I was referring to your situation - of course.

Fair enough - but, as I said, no matter what 'situation' one has an accessory ceases to be useful as an ndicator of possible cable routes when iut is not visible!

Then people will have to rely on something else. Might anyone seeing an illuminated mirror think there is without doubt a cable somewhere?

Quite so - but that's common sense, whereas UI was talking about ('strict compliance with') regulations.

Yes. If not where do you draw the line? A shaver/light surely is so how wide or high is allowed.
Given that 'safe zone' refers to an area where people think there might be buried cables, how can you not believe that?

I have to say that it has never even occurred to me that, in the context of defining 'safe zones', "any point, accessory or switchgear' included 'current-using equipment' (particularly large items of such equipment), and I still find it very hard to believe that such is the intent of the regs. What do others think?

A friend of mine has strip lighting all round the piucture rail of an entire room - does that mean that (in your oopinuion), the entire room is a 'safe zone'?

I think it depends what one thinks 'safe zone' means.

It obviously does, but I thought I was clear (at least, by implication) in indicating that I was talking about 'safe zones' as specifically defined in BS7671?

 

[JohnW2]

Well, of course it can't be answered - easily or otherwise. If everyone said it was 'likely' all mirrors had a space behind, what good would that be?

On the basis of that comment, it sounds as if you still have not 'got it'

That would be of considerable 'good' (use/value) to me. I was seeking confirmation (or otherwise) that it was quite likely that an illuminated mirror would have a ';gap' behind iut - since, if I created a situation in which I needed such a gap (which, at the time, I thought I did) then there would be a good few suitable ones out there to choose from (even though not all would have gaps).

If you then found one that hadn't, you would be the first to let us know but the answer would still be correct.

Of course I wouldn't. "Likely means what it says, and is very different from 'inevitable'. It';s subjective, so people will vary in their opinion, but 'likely' presumably always indicates a probability greater than 50%, but definitely less that 100% (for which a much stronger word would be used).