Stairs switches

[TNDU]

It's not really particularly confusing ...

Each switch has two positions - say 'up' and 'down'. Whether one of the switches is in the up or down position determines which position of the other switch (up or down) will result in the light coming on. It therefore follows that, as EFLI has pointed out, there are two possible combinations of switch positions which will result in the light being on,and two combinations which will result in the light being off - and nothing can change that.

Simples

It may be simple to you but not so to me, lol. I don't pay attention to the switch position normally. I just look at the light to determine which position I need to turn the switch so if it is on, I press the switch to turn it off and vice versa but I guess from what you and EFL are saying is that there is actually a logical position for the switches.

This is helpful! I never could work out before when the light bulb is broke, what position the switch should be in and have put a bulb in when the switch is on because without the bulb, I have no idea if the switch is in the on or off position

 

[JohnW2]

It may be simple to you but not so to me, lol. I don't pay attention to the switch position normally. I just look at the light to determine which position I need to turn the switch so if it is on, I press the switch to turn it off and vice versa ....

I think that's what we nearly all do. To be frank, I couldn't tell you anything about the positions (for 'lkigh on' and light off') of the 2-way switches in my house.

but I guess from what you and EFL are saying is that there is actually a logical position for the switches.

I don't know about 'logical' - it's more a question of knowing how a particular pair of switches has been wired (since there are no 'rules', or even agreed conventions).

If you know that a particular pair of switches has been wired such that the light will be on when the switches are both in the same position (or on when they are both in different positions), then one knows what combination of switch positions to apply if one wants the light to be 'off' (even of the bulb has died). However, in the absence of any 'rules', that only applies the the particular pair of switches in a particular building.

This is helpful! I never could work out before when the light bulb is broke, what position the switch should be in and have put a bulb in when the switch is on because without the bulb, I have no idea if the switch is in the on or off position

As above, if you know how your switches have been wired, that enables you know what combination of switch positions will turn the light off.

 

[FrodoOne]

I find it "logical" to ensure that
when both switches are in that which would be the OFF position - for any "normal" single ON-OFF switch -
the light(s) controlled are OFF.

When both those switches are in the other position, the light(s) will also be OFF.

When either switch is in the opposite position to the other,
the light(s) will be ON.

Even with three or more "switch locations", I prefer that
when all switches are in that which would be the OFF position for any "normal" single ON-OFF switch,
the light(s) controlled are OFF

 

[JohnW2]

I find it "logical" to ensure that
when both switches are in that which would be the OFF position - for any "normal" single ON-OFF switch -
the light(s) controlled are OFF.
When both those switches are in the other position, the light(s) will also be OFF.
When either switch is in the opposite position to the other,
the light(s) will be ON.

As I've said, in the absence of any 'rules' or even 'established conventions', think it's essentially a personal thing,m rather than anything usefully related to 'logic'. You are suggesting the same as EFLI, but other might have other views.

However, I talk of "usefully related to logic" because, whilst I can see some 'logic' in the convention it's not particularly useful, since the switches are remote from one another, such that, in normal use, one doesn't know what position the other switch (or switches) is/ar in.

Moving from 'normal use' to the issue of servicing/maintenance etc., as has been discussed the one advantage of having some (personal/local) convention is that it enables one to know which combinations of switch positions results in OFF functionality. However, as above, that is a personal/local convention, and cannot safely be extrapolated to any other situation

 

[Ragnar_AT]

There are only two options if there are two switches:
1) Both switches up = off, both switches down = off, one up/one down = on
2) Both switches up = on, both switches down = on, one up/one down = off

With more switches things get more complicated.

 

[EFLImpudence]

As I've said, in the absence of any 'rules' or even 'established conventions', think it's essentially a personal thing,m rather than anything usefully related to 'logic'. You are suggesting the same as EFLI, but other might have other views.

I was only explaining to TNDU that what SFK had described (both up = off) also applied when both switches were down.

However, I talk of "usefully related to logic" because, whilst I can see some 'logic' in the convention it's not particularly useful, since the switches are remote from one another, such that, in normal use, one doesn't know what position the other switch (or switches) is/ar in.

I think this positioning does make some sense, in that where multigang switches are being used for both two-way and one-way switching, then when all switches in the property are in the conventional off position (top pressed in - in the UK; different elsewhere) then all the lights would be off.

Moving from 'normal use' to the issue of servicing/maintenance etc., as has been discussed the one advantage of having some (personal/local) convention is that it enables one to know which combinations of switch positions results in OFF functionality. However, as above, that is a personal/local convention, and cannot safely be extrapolated to any other situation

True.

 

[JohnW2]

There are only two options if there are two switches:
1) Both switches up = off, both switches down = off, one up/one down = on
2) Both switches up = on, both switches down = on, one up/one down = off

Yes, we know that - but 'in normal use', people don't know what position the other switch is in ...and, as for servicing/maintenance, ity's only useful if one knows whether your convention (1) or convention (2) has been adopted for the particular circuit.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Of course, if you also had an intermediate switch (i.e. three switches operating one light) and it was arranged so that all switches up is light off, then all switches down would be light on.

 

[JohnW2]

I think this positioning does make some sense, in that where multigang switches are being used for both two-way and one-way switching, then when all switches in the property are in the conventional off position (top pressed in - in the UK; different elsewhere) then all the lights would be off.

Yes, but 'in normal use' that situation would not persist. If, starting with all switches in that 'off' position, someone switch one of the lights on (by changing one switch to the 'on' position), someone wishing to switch it off from some other switch would have to move their switch to the 'on' position.

One would then be back in the situation with the light off, but one of the switches at each location would now be in the 'on' position.

However, a convention such as yours would enable one to know (for maintenance/servicing etc.) what combination of switch positions (i.e. all off) would result in the light being off - but that would apply only to that circuit in that installation, and might not be true elsewhere

(top pressed in - in the UK; different elsewhere) then all the lights would be off.

Whilst there is reasonable consistency in UK with toggle/lever switches (i.e. down = ON), opposite to that in many other countries, I don't think there is a lot of consistency in relation to rocker switches, even within UK. I certainly see 'both' quite oftyen.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Yes, but 'in normal use' that situation would not persist. If, starting with all switches in that 'off' position, someone switch one of the lights on (by changing one switch to the 'on' position), someone wishing to switch it off from some other switch would have to move their switch to the 'on' position.

One would then be back in the situation with the light off, but one of the switches at each location would now be in the 'on' position.

However, a convention such as yours would enable one to know (for maintenance/servicing etc.) what combination of switch positions (i.e. all off) would result in the light being off - but that would apply only to that circuit in that installation, and might not be true elsewhere

I know.

Whilst there is reasonable consistency in UK with toggle/lever switches (i.e. down = ON), opposite to that in many other countries, I don't think there is a lot of consistency in relation to rocker switches, even within UK. I certainly see 'both' quite oftyen.

That puzzles me. Surely a rocker switch is just a toggle switch without the toggle.

I don't think I ever came across a normal switch in the UK that was press bottom/down for off and equally here (Portugal) and on tv from the U.S. the opposite - which, I presume, is why electrical equipment is like that.

 

[ericmark]

I know an isolator is mounted so any item falling on the switch will switch it off, so down is off, but tradition for light switches has always been down for on. But with two way it is normal to arrange if all switches are up the lights are off, but that also means if both down also off, so can't see what difference it makes?

Seems to remember there was a regulation for fireman's isolator with high voltage discharge lighting, but that is nothing to do with low voltage (230 volts) lights found in homes.

 

[JohnW2]

I know.

Fair enough - so you presumably agree with me that, "in normal use", the fact that "light is off if all switches are in 'off'position" is not useful, since the light can be on with switches in the 'on' position?

That puzzles me. Surely a rocker switch is just a toggle switch without the toggle.

Construction-wise, that's obviously true, but I think 'perception'; is much less straightforward - since when thetop of a rocker is pressed in the bottom 'comes out'

I don't think I ever came across a normal switch in the UK that was press bottom/down for off .....

Until yesterday, I would have said that I don't recall having seen a toggle or lever switch in UK which was 'down for off' (although I gather that is the norm in US and elsewhere). However, yesterday I was in a neighbour's house and found myself confront with (in their downstairs loo!) a brass toggle switch that was 'down for off'!

On the other hand, I'm fairly sure that I have fairly commonly seen (in UK) rocker switches with "press bottom for off". By purely fortuitous co-incidence ... I am not at home at the moment, but these photos show the light switch and light in the room I am sitting in

 

[JohnW2]

I know an isolator is mounted so any item falling on the switch will switch it off, so down is off, but tradition for light switches has always been down for on. But with two way it is normal to arrange if all switches are up the lights are off, but that also means if both down also off, so can't see what difference it makes?

Quite. As I've said, these conventions mean nothing in terms of 'normal use'.

However, if there were (which there isn't) a 'rule' or universally-agreed convention, then someone working on the circuit would know that 'all up' or 'all down' meant (or should mean ) that the light was 'off'.

 

[EFLImpudence]

View attachment 363537View attachment 363539

Are you assuming that was done on purpose?

 

[JohnW2]

Are you assuming that was done on purpose?

Who knows? I'm 'assuming' nothing - I merely said that I had not uncommonly seen it - but goodness knows whether it was done 'on purpose' or not!

Hang on - there is one way that I can get some insight into the probable answer to that question .....
......
not totally conclusive (because of the two 'exceptions') but all but two of the 1-way switches in this house appear to be 'that way up' - so I imagine it was essentially 'on purpose'. The house was rewired a bit over 20 years ago.