Switch next to sink

[jelliottelectrical]

... and/or, given that at least some of those C2s are, to say the least, very questionable, one might wave a copy of the EICR at NICEIC 'for their comment'!

Kind Regards, John

Too much of this work creation going on via EICRs since the law changed requiring them. I have people telling me I can’t perform an EICR without being accredited (total ballcocks) and other customer asking me to look over their EICR as they have been quoted more to rectify a few issues than it would to rewire the place!

 

[JohnW2]

No offence but where I’m coming from the someone needs to be a qualified person able to issue a compliance report.

There are such people around here.

if the general consensus is this is a try on I’ll get another report done.

If this EICR relates to rental premises, then one of the major problems with the new legislation is that it does not appear to offer that option. The legislation seems to require that you get all C2s (and C1s) remedied within 28 days of the production of that report, and the only way out of that seems to be to try to go through some sort of appeal process with the LA. The legislation appears to be a "cowboy's charter"!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Most don't quote Regulation numbers. In fact you are explicitly told that you're not supposed to.

Where is that 'explicit telling', and who is doing the 'telling'?

Regulation numbers are meaningless for those reading the report.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that one should only mention reg numbers. However, they are very useful (in addition to "details of the issue") to the recipients of the reports in cases such as we are discussing, in which there is a definite need to find out what is the alleged basis/justification for the codes recorded.

 

[endecotp]

if the general consensus is this is a try on I’ll get another report done.

quote is 800 + vat to “fix”.

If I were in the position of needing an EICR for a rental property, I think I’d get someone to do it with the promise that I wouldn’t be employing them to do any remedial work. That removes the perverse incentive to make up failures. I wonder if I’d find anyone prepared to do a report on that basis?

 

[JohnW2]

If I were in the position of needing an EICR for a rental property, I think I’d get someone to do it with the promise that I wouldn’t be employing them to do any remedial work.

That's exactly what I have suggested, but some here felt that it would create a degree of 'distrust' that would make most electricians decline the job.

Kind Regards, John

 

[motorbiking]

There are such people around here.
If this EICR relates to rental premises, then one of the major problems with the new legislation is that it does not appear to offer that option. The legislation seems to require that you get all C2s (and C1s) remedied within 28 days of the production of that report, and the only way out of that seems to be to try to go through some sort of appeal process with the LA. The legislation appears to be a "cowboy's charter"!

Kind Regards, John

Not quite if the landlord gets the report done before the tenancy commencement he is free to take as long as he likes. But yes if the test is during a tenancy the LL is a bit stuck.

 

[EFLImpudence]

The way the legislation is written. The electrician is free to decide. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2020/9780111191934

I don't know if there are any differences but your link is to the draft.

Actual -
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/312/contents/made

It does say remedial work be completed within 28 days.

What is it you think the electrician is free to decide?

 

[motorbiking]

You do wonder how people renting out Victorian terraces are going to comply.

 

[motorbiking]

I don't know if there are any differences but your link is to the draft.

Actual -
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/312/contents/made

It does say remedial work be completed within 28 days.

What is it you think the electrician is free to decide?

the electrician appears free to code as he sees fit. The standards are defined as

eighteenth edition of the Wiring Regulations, published by the Institution of Engineering and Technology and the British Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2018(3);

It would appear that landlords now have to bring the electrics up to today’s standards.

pre tenancy a person is not bound by the 28 day rule as at any point a person can reset by amending his intention to let the property as defined.

 

[ericmark]

The 18th edition states in the preamble the date at which the design must comply, so not complying with any of the requirements after that statement is only required for designs after that date, so to comply with the 18th edition the work only needs to comply with the requirements required at the date of design. Yes that does mean the inspector would need the design date, however the inspector is only looking for potential dangerous for code 2 and no edition of BS 7671 has allowed anything potential dangerous.

Also you are only inspecting electrical items installed so missing smoke alarms or lights does not generate any code, even if no lights in the house, that would not generate a failure, although clearly the premises would not be considered as habitable.

As to sink and socket distance, seem to remember the 14th edition did list a distance, idea was a kettle lead was of a length so it could not be left plugged in while filling, however at that time the wiring regulations were like today's regulations and the on site guide combined, and seem to remember one edition where metal window frames were to be earthed, and one where all items in bathrooms were bonded, so whole idea of the EICR is to remove potential danger, or danger and to inform the owner if things will need upgrading before other electrical work is carried out, however the EIC can't be issued by any one not in control of the work being done, so the EICR forms are used to inform the LABC if the work complies with the BS 7671 if it was being designed today, so the extent of the inspection and what codes are used depends on the instructions given to the inspector. So if the LABC says to an inspector this is a new extension or a re-wire will you see if this work complies with requirements for a new installation the inspector can clearly include new requirements like need to fire resistance consumer unit, forms are the same, it is the instructions to the inspector that matters.

All 230 volt electrics are potentially dangerous, so it is impossible to say awarding a code C2 is wrong, the form was never designed as a house electrics MOT it was designed to tell owners the condition of building electrics, and the code 4 which said does not comply with current edition has been removed, as it was causing problems where people thought they needed to up grade the building electrics just because a regulation has changed. In some cases up grading may be required, for example if the boiler is changed and new ones manufacturers instructions say it needs a type A RCD of 30 mA unless you can show the manufacturers instructions are wrong then it needs upgrading, however this should be advised by person fitting the boiler, not left to next EICR, it would be impossible for any inspector to know which boiler requires a type A and which required type AC there are just too many.

As to items like electric car charging points, since most need type B RCD and some can use type A then clearly with a type AC the inspector would realise this will not comply and not really worried about looking back at previous issues as back in the 14th edition time the charger was fixed to building the the vehicle, so he could clearly use the latest edition of BS 7671. However to date I have not seen a single complaint of an EICR having a C2 because of the wrong type of RCD being fitted. Wrong tripping current, or time delay may be but not wrong type.

What I would like defining is "permanently fixed to the building" I would consider an immersion heater included in an EICR but not the boiler, I would expect a boiler to be covered with the gas safe inspection not the EICR, however there is nothing in the law that says that, so should an EICR inspector remove the covers of a boiler in the same way as removing a selected number of sockets to check for grommets, and connection of earth wires etc? The remit of the inspector does seem to be wide open for interruption.

 

[motorbiking]

It seems this answers the question - measurement is horizontal not point to point.

 

[EFLImpudence]

the electrician appears free to code as he sees fit.

Well, yes, that is true but they are supposed to be competent; clearly a lot are not.

The standards are defined as eighteenth edition of the Wiring Regulations, published by the Institution of Engineering and Technology and the British Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2018(3);It would appear that landlords now have to bring the electrics up to today’s standards.

Yes, but it does not require updating installations purely for the sake of it.

pre tenancy a person is not bound by the 28 day rule as at any point a person can reset by amending his intention to let the property as defined.

Obviously true, so, the electrician can prohibit you from letting your property because of incompetence with no appeal procedure.
You can have innumerable reports carried out until you find a competent inspector.

A car does not require an MoT if parked in the back garden.

 

[EFLImpudence]

It seems this answers the question - measurement is horizontal not point to point.

Yes, but that is only guidance someone has written or followed because they thought it a good idea (which it might be).

It is not regulation let alone law.

 

[motorbiking]

I'm not sure of the going rate for a qualified electrician its west London (Heathrow area). My guess is somewhere around £50-80p/h + VAT. This suggests my rework is around 10-12 hours labour. In which case with the initial inspection costing £120 + VAT and the chap being there over 3 hours, you can see how the model works. Take a hit on the inspection and find work that "needs" doing.

 

[ericmark]

The problem or cure depending on which side of the fence is any paperwork showing work completed it seems complies, it does not require a new EICR once the work is done.

So with a switch next to sink, a receipt for an IP 65 switch it all that is required. So this

would mean it can pass, at £6.72 I am sure you can find cheaper, and the switch is no different, not a water proof switch it is simply a cover, the polythene cover used in kitchens to keep dirt of switches would be better, but my point is other than where the LABC needs notifying under part P you can simply attach copies of the receipts to the report and you have complied. OK if part P says LABC needs notifying then would need a scheme member to do the work.

So a cracked socket you can replace and simply attach a copy of receipt, there is a problem when nothing really wrong, I looked at this cover think unnecessary but it would be a cheap way to get around the problem.