Terminating sockets with a plug instead of an FCU

[Kalibre46]

So I would very much be interested to hear what everyone says on the subject of the 'good workmanship' you mentioned and if I would be in breach of the regulations on this basis. So far it appears only yourself has the opinion that I might be. Anyone?

The 'good workmanship' regulation is an incredibly vague 'catch all' one which BAS wheels out whenever he personally does not like something but can't think of any other specific regulation which it contravenes. My grandfather would have said the same - a lot of tutting and an assertion that "unprofessional = poor workmanship"

As I said before, what you're proposing is neither 'nice' nor 'professional', and limits you to 13A on the socket(s) fed from one plug, but (provided the cable is not a trip hazard, and that all the wring done competently and safely!) it is no less safe than plugging anything else into a 13A socket - so I doubt that, even though they might not 'like it', either, many people other than BAS would seriously suggest that it contravened the intended spirit of the regulation about 'good workmanship' (provided everything was wired competently and safely!).

Having said all that, it is quite probably virtually as easy, and maybe even cheaper, to 'do it properly' (and then virtually as easy to 'undo' when you need to), so I'm not really sure why you're adopting this approach.

Kind Regards, John

Thanks again for your detailed reply. Like I've mentioned in my post above, I take a good look at everything and decide if it is indeed the right approach to adopt.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Not ignoring it, just genuinely didn't see that post!

OK - my apologies - you were responding to all the other replies - I couldn't help but feel you weren't having anything to do with approvals/certificates/insurance.

I guess that doesn't make me a fool luckily, because I have had discussions with the local authorities, am officially NOT changing it's use,

Well - if you've told them what you are doing, and they don't consider running a business from it COU, then fair enough. Was that both from a Building Regulations and a Planning perspective?

In discussions with the authority I mentioned that all electrical appliances will be using the existing electrical sockets (be it directly or via extension), hence the source of my original question.

That's now changed, so you need to tell them about it.

So I would very much be interested to hear what everyone says on the subject of the 'good workmanship' you mentioned and if I would be in breach of the regulations on this basis. So far it appears only yourself has the opinion that I might be. Anyone?

I might well be the only one if everyone else has lower standards.

The 'good workmanship' regulation is an incredibly vague 'catch all' one which BAS wheels out whenever he personally does not like something but can't think of any other specific regulation which it contravenes.

Not quite - it's one I mention when I encounter something which, having exercised reasonable skill and care when considering it, to the best of my knowledge and belief does not count as good workmanship by competent persons or proper materials.

I don't believe I have ever seen anything saying that something has to contravene more than one Wiring Regulation for it to be considered a breach.

As I said before, what you're proposing is neither 'nice' nor 'professional', and limits you to 13A on the socket(s) fed from one plug, but (provided the cable is not a trip hazard, and that all the wring done competently and safely!) it is no less safe than plugging anything else into a 13A socket - so I doubt that, even though they might not 'like it', either, many people other than BAS would seriously suggest that it contravened the intended spirit of the regulation about 'good workmanship' (provided everything was wired competently and safely!).

It matters not that no other regulations are contravened.

I won't apologise for having higher standards than many other people.

 

[JohnW2]

The 'good workmanship' regulation is an incredibly vague 'catch all' one which BAS wheels out whenever he personally does not like something but can't think of any other specific regulation which it contravenes.

Not quite - it's one I mention when I encounter something which, having exercised reasonable skill and care when considering it, to the best of my knowledge and belief does not count as good workmanship by competent persons or proper materials.

Given that the reg is so vague, and so reliant on subjective interpretation, that is obviously your prerogative.

I don't believe I have ever seen anything saying that something has to contravene more than one Wiring Regulation for it to be considered a breach.

There is obviously no such requirement. However, I really don't know how one can decide whether there is a breach of 134.1.1 when the interpretation is so subjective. The fact that you, or I, or any other individual might personally feel that a particular piece of work violates the regulation obviously means little.

Given what the Wiring Regulations are all really about, common sense suggests that it is probably inappropriate to attempt to invoke this regulation unless the 'poor workmanship' raises any safety issues (in which case it would quite probably violate other, more specific, regs anyway), no matter how aesthetically unpleasing (which, of course, is again a very subjective matter).

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Each 'socket output' is obviously limited to 13A, since the associated plug cannot have a fuse larger than 13A.

As for what total current (total of two outlets) one should draw from a double socket,if you look in the archives of a forum like this you will find many very lengthy, and sometimes quite heated, debates - which is a sure sign that no-one really knows the answer!! A few think that the maximum is just 13A total across both outlets/plugs (because they usually have "13A" written on the back), some believe that they can stand 26A (i.e. two 'full' 13A loads). Most seem to believe that the actual practical answer is somewhere between those two extremes, a common belief being that the safe limit is about "20A total". However, as I say, despite assertions you'll see, no-one seems to know for sure (I once had a lengthy discussion about this with a Tech Support guy at MK, and ended up none the wiser!)

After some debate the National Committee, being keen to maintain the use of the UK
ring circuit, amended the basic requirement for the rating of the current carrying
capacity of the cable to be no less than 20 amps. This aligns with the total current
rating of the wiring accessories.

 

[JohnW2]

After some debate the National Committee, being keen to maintain the use of the UK
ring circuit, amended the basic requirement for the rating of the current carrying capacity of the cable to be no less than 20 amps. This aligns with the total current rating of the wiring accessories.

Yes, we've discussed that statement before. Quite apart from not knowing 'where it comes from' (it was presumably the opinion of at least some members of the 'National Committee'), it seems essentially irrelevant to the main thing they are actually talking about (the 'tweaking' to enable ring finals to persist!), since it only has any direct relevance to unfused spurs.

Kind Regards, John

 

[PreferNotToDieOrBurn]

The official word is:

If you connect new sockets to an existing circuit by using a 13A fused plug (which is what I understand you're trying to do), this becomes an appliance and not part of the circuit.

So it is legal. It does work. But it was done in my house and I would shoot the guy who did it if I ever met him.

So in short, if it's connected via fused 13A plug it is classified as an appliance.

 

[PreferNotToDieOrBurn]

In discussions with the authority I mentioned that all electrical appliances will be using the existing electrical sockets (be it directly or via extension), hence the source of my original question.

That's now changed, so you need to tell them about it.

No, connecting sockets with a plug is classed as effectively using an extension lead. And extension lead is also considered an appliance.

 

[stillp]

The official word is:

If you connect new sockets to an existing circuit by using a 13A fused plug (which is what I understand you're trying to do), this becomes an appliance and not part of the circuit.

So it is legal. It does work. But it was done in my house and I would shoot the guy who did it if I ever met him.

So in short, if it's connected via fused 13A plug it is classified as an appliance.

Nonsense. Which idiot told you that?

 

[PreferNotToDieOrBurn]

The official word is:

If you connect new sockets to an existing circuit by using a 13A fused plug (which is what I understand you're trying to do), this becomes an appliance and not part of the circuit.

So it is legal. It does work. But it was done in my house and I would shoot the guy who did it if I ever met him.

So in short, if it's connected via fused 13A plug it is classified as an appliance.

Nonsense. Which idiot told you that?

Two separate expert witnesses for the defense, with credentials, sworn in, and in court before a judge.

 

[stillp]

The official word is:

If you connect new sockets to an existing circuit by using a 13A fused plug (which is what I understand you're trying to do), this becomes an appliance and not part of the circuit.

So it is legal. It does work. But it was done in my house and I would shoot the guy who did it if I ever met him.

So in short, if it's connected via fused 13A plug it is classified as an appliance.

Nonsense. Which idiot told you that?

Two separate expert witnesses for the defense, with credentials, sworn in, and in court before a judge.

Very funny. Still wrong. http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&ievref=151-11-23

 

[PreferNotToDieOrBurn]

The official word is:

If you connect new sockets to an existing circuit by using a 13A fused plug (which is what I understand you're trying to do), this becomes an appliance and not part of the circuit.

So it is legal. It does work. But it was done in my house and I would shoot the guy who did it if I ever met him.

So in short, if it's connected via fused 13A plug it is classified as an appliance.

Nonsense. Which idiot told you that?

Two separate expert witnesses for the defense, with credentials, sworn in, and in court before a judge.

Very funny. Still wrong. http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&ievref=151-11-23[/QUOTE]

Is the question: Is an extension lead considered and appliance?
Or is the question: Is what OP is suggesting an extension lead?

The answer to the first irrelevant (although it is considered an appliance in law, apparently)
The answer to the second question is yes.

I'm not sure what you think your link adds/proves?

 

[stillp]

Well I thought the link would help you understand that connecting something via a 13A plug does not make something an appliance.

 

[PreferNotToDieOrBurn]

Well I thought the link would help you understand that connecting something via a 13A plug does not make something an appliance.

While my colloquial understanding of the word appliance agrees with you:
1. plugging something in via a 13A plug means that item isn't considered part of the electrical system
2. in law it is considered an appliance (ie. something plugged into the electrical system)

 

[stillp]

You keep saying things like "in law". Care to give a citation for that assertion?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I suspect he neither knows nor cares.

There's probably no point in trying to discuss with him the fact that these are fixed sockets whether supplied from a plug or not, and are therefore part of an electrical installation within the scope of the Building Regulations. I suspect he will neither understand nor (more likely) care. He thinks that he is a victim of a conspiracy of vested interests which are denying him proper advice, and seems to want to give advice to others who he sees as fellow victims despite not having a clue.