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Terraced house alarm system
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streaker99
Sorry do you employ me or pay me wages?
Bit rude aren't we?
Since you NEVER accept anything I say then why don't you argue with and get the answer from here.
Customer helpline: 01902 364647
Email us at [email protected]
Monday Thursday: 8.30am - 4.30pm
Friday: 9.30am - 2.30pm
They will give you an answer and I wont have to put up with constant trolling.
The truth is I will give out advice quicker than they do and probably better than whoever is new to the helpline this week but I am fed up of banging my head against the brick wall that is Bernard with his experience of safety critical systems VS the provision of a low grade alarm system suitable for domestic security.
Go on Bernard give them a call..
When you get your answer 'I'll# be waiting
That is a fair description and I accept and agree with it.
It is obvious I don't and based on your input to the forum and your reaction to comment it is very unlikely that I would in the future.
I do accept some of the thing you say, what I cannot accept is when you state that the technically impossible is possible in your adopted system.
I doubt I would have to argue with the help desk agent if they were technically competent in matters of wireless communication.
I take that as meaning you be waiting for the answer to a question you do not yet have the answer to. It is an answer that is needed to be able to predict the operation and hence reliability of the system in a scenario which a user may create.
You see the offer of technical knowledge to help you fully understand how your adopted system works as trolling. It suggests that you may have a mind that is closed to help that might change and possibly improve the way you work and thus improve the service you provide to your customers.
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streaker99
At last we got there in the end. . . . .
Could I just ask why you have honed in on the sleep time issue.
Are you seriously suggesting the sleep time would be an opportunity for someone to burgle the home?
The sensors are continually detecting movement. They cannot help doing so they have an active sensor that has power. The movement sensing never stops. They go into sleep mode after they have reported. The sleep function is to save battery life so the sensors work when needed instead of uselessly reporting all the time when everyone is sitting watching tv or on the xbox.
They do not go into sleep mode immediately they detect movement and will infact report several times before they go to sleep.
This I presume is to safeguard against the possibility that one of the reports did not get through. So you get anything between 30 seconds and a minute of actual movements reported before the device goes to sleep.
After 60 seconds of not sensing movement they come out of sleep mode again.
To put that into context in a typical family scenario
Everyone gets up to get ready for school and work.
There is activity downstairs where people are generally in the kitchen and make occasional trips up and down the stairs and into the lounge.
Most people have left and the last person leaving now comes to lock up.
The default count down to arm the system is 30 seconds.
The current sensors likely to be in sleep mode are the kitchen sensor due to the activity within. The lounge sensor will be active as not enough sustained activity has put it to sleep or the sensor is already out of sleep mode 60 seconds having elapsed since someone was in there.
Non of the door sensors or window sensors go into sleep mode so the doors and patio doors are always protected.
So someone has just left the kitchen to leave the house.
Assuming the kitchen pir is in sleep mode then it will not be active for 60 seconds.
In the hall they put on their shoes and get their coat bag and / or briefcase and have a look in the mirror. this wastes around 25 seconds say , that would be a reasonable estimate.
So they now set the alarm and it begins its 30 seconds countdown.
At 30 seconds the alarm is set.
HOWEVER it now takes a further 5 seconds before the kitchen pir wakes up ready to report movement again.
So yes Bernard hypothetically if someone wanted to burgle the home without setting off the alarm they would have 5 seconds to smash through the kitchen door or window without opening any door or window contact and grab whatever they could and get back out again before the kitchen pir woke up and saw them.
Is it this hypothetical 5 second window that so worries you about the sensors going to sleep?
Bernard you are undoubtably more educated than I am in the subject of wireless and systems and I will never have your level of understanding.
However never underestimate the power of common sense.
It is good to see you are thinking about the less obvious consequences of the sleep mode of the sensors and beginning to see how intruders can take advantage of the sleep mode.
It is good to learn that the sensor sends more than one "activate" message before going to sleep.
You may find the 5 second window is considerably longer as once the intruder is in and moving around in the room with the sensor in sleep mode it will remain in sleep mode.
Which gives the intruder a 60 second window to enter say the living room immediately after the last person leaves the room. Whatever is happening elsewhere in the house, people moving and the setting of the alarm that living room is un-protected for 60 seconds. Provided the intruder enters quietely and keeps moving the sensor will then remain in sleep mode until 60 seconds after the intruder has left the room.
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streaker99
Ok I see that but in reality the intruder would not be able to make an attempt to enter the home until the homeowner had got in his car or had left the vicinity and by then the 5 seconds would have elapsed.
If he was to smash a window or door to climb in that would take more than 5 seconds to achieve not withstanding the noise that would create and the vicinity of the homeowner.
We are also talking about one pir so if the intruder did manage to enter the home and put the kitchen sensor back to sleep any movement into another protected zone would immediately be reported. So if they went into the hallway or lounge they would be picked up.Also if they left the kitchen for more than 60 seconds it would activate on their return.
I am pretty sure the alarm designers did a pretty accurate risk assesment before deciding a 60 second sleep time was the best compromise between saving battery life and property protection.
I am happy with their calculations and it has never been reported to me ever that any system I have been connected with did not activate when expected.
I think this sleep time discussion is one for theorists in the classroom or designers of the system rather than users in the real world.
PS just seen your edit and you have identified the risk as someone who sneaks into the house and hides before the alarm is set.
Why is this a 'wireless' issue this would apply equally to ANY wired system.
The intruder would simply MASK the pir with a piece of cardboard taped to the front and then he could move about all he wanted.
PLEASE do not start mentioning anti mask sensors we are talking typical grade 2 domestic systems here not grade 3 critical security which in any case could be compromised by simply swivelling the sensor to face the ceiling.
The intruder could be in the back garden and enter before the user ( in the hall and unable to see into the living room ) starts to set the alarm. Remember the alarm can be set when a door or window is open so in theory a determined and informed intruder could open a protected window after the person left the room and before the alarm was set.
So am I but it is a "best compromise" and they also considered the requirements imposed by the use of licence exempt radio communications and the cost to manufacturer.
Yes the discussion is for theorists and designers but the implications and consequences of the sleep time compromise are very important to the person(s) performing the risk analysis prior to selection and purchase of an alarm system.
It would not apply in the same way to a two way licence exempt wireless system where the control panel can command sensors to go to "sleep" or to "wake up" as and when the panel decides is necessary. Especially waking them up and verifying status of all sensors and protected areas, doors and windows before the alarm is set.
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streaker99
If a user is so concerned about the possibility of an intruder entering the home before he leaves it and sets the alarm then they would simply have to go round and check all the rooms before they went out.
Also if a user is concrened about the sleep status of their sensors then they can actually wake them up.
There is a learn button on the pir , this when pressed sends a report to the control panel and ALSO wakes up the sensor.
I use this button to wake sensors when I am performing the walk test.
So if someone really wanted to ensure the system was active and ready it would simply be a case of walking into each protected room to check noone was hiding and pressing the sensors learn button.
The last person leaving the kitchen before leaving the house could simply activate the sensor on their way out of the kitchen by pressing the button.
But remember all the sensors would be active anyway after 60 seconds or as hypothosized 5 seconds after the alarm was set .So unless we are in the scenario you mention where someone is already in the home it would not be relevant
Remember also the scenario of someone already in the room would apply equally to a two way wireless system where the intruder could be in and have already masked or swivelled the sensor.
Also if a user is concrened about the sleep status of their sensors then they can actually wake them up.
There is a learn button on the pir , this when pressed sends a report to the control panel and ALSO wakes up the sensor.
I use this button to wake sensors when I am performing the walk test.
So if someone really wanted to ensure the system was active and ready it would simply be a case of walking into each protected room to check noone was hiding and pressing the sensors learn button.
The last person leaving the kitchen before leaving the house could simply activate the sensor on their way out of the kitchen by pressing the button.
But remember all the sensors would be active anyway after 60 seconds or as hypothosized 5 seconds after the alarm was set .So unless we are in the scenario you mention where someone is already in the home it would not be relevant
Remember also the scenario of someone already in the room would apply equally to a two way wireless system where the intruder could be in and have already masked or swivelled the sensor.
With the wired Galaxy system I have at home, if I potter about in front of a PIR during the exit count-down, it doesn't set until all sensors have stopped detecting me, then it has 30 seconds.
So surely the idea that a ne'erdowell could break in round the back while I was doing up my shoelaces or walking down the garden path is just as relevant here; i.e. it is not a valid criticism of one make of alarm (such as the Yale) if it is a feature that is common to multiple brands.
So surely the idea that a ne'erdowell could break in round the back while I was doing up my shoelaces or walking down the garden path is just as relevant here; i.e. it is not a valid criticism of one make of alarm (such as the Yale) if it is a feature that is common to multiple brands.
You really don't know anything about the workings of 'real' alarm systems do you?
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streaker99
Ok, then please explain how you would swivel a G3 detector to face the ceiling without compromising the system in some way.of courseI do thats why I wrote what I did..simples..
To make things easier I do mean whether the alarm is on, or off.
You brought up the G3 example, now put your money where your mouth is.
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streaker99
ok then - using a junior hacksaw blade or a usual hacksaw blade cut the bottom screws through till there is only one screw remaining holding the sensor to the wall being careful not to catch the wire.
when only one screw is attaching it to the wall simply swivel it skyward taking care not to dislodge the wire.
jobs done...
If its only into plasterboard the you could simply prize the detector away from the wall leaving it still attached to the wire and then tape it back pointing anywhere you like.
You could even tape a small mirror at 45 degrees in front of the sensor thus it would not see down but would not detect masking either
when only one screw is attaching it to the wall simply swivel it skyward taking care not to dislodge the wire.
jobs done...
If its only into plasterboard the you could simply prize the detector away from the wall leaving it still attached to the wire and then tape it back pointing anywhere you like.
You could even tape a small mirror at 45 degrees in front of the sensor thus it would not see down but would not detect masking either
But you started the ball rolling by knocking professional, more knowledgeable members. Promoting Yale toot whilst putting down more robust systems - even though you have zero experience of them.
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