Are them 2 still arguing/debating who's right/wrong. 
The Stern Report (aka Global Warming)
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hermes said:
Why are you asking me, and not asking the same person joe-90 is asking?
I know about this link, have read that and a lot else besides. If you go through my posts you will also see that I have quoted figures showing why there will be no satisfactory substitute for oil, and why bio-fuels are a total joke.
I suggest you ask the right person.
Oilman I apologise, I didn't follow the thread closely enough and asked of you the question I should have been directing at johnD.
B
Big_Spark
The Stern report is a lot of tosh, inaccurate so called facts and simple scaremongering.
Global warming is real, but it is natural, there is not one piece of evidence linking human activety to climate change that cannot be countered with a natural argument.
We should make our homes, businesses etc more energy efficient simply because it is economically right and morally right to do so. We should stop pumping shiite into the atmosphere and the wider environment because it harms our health and that of the natural world, to which we are inextricably linked. We should stop this hype over man made climate change and force governments to stop wasting public money on a fools errand..money that could be better spent on health care, education and the elderly.
Global warming is real, but it is natural, there is not one piece of evidence linking human activety to climate change that cannot be countered with a natural argument.
We should make our homes, businesses etc more energy efficient simply because it is economically right and morally right to do so. We should stop pumping shiite into the atmosphere and the wider environment because it harms our health and that of the natural world, to which we are inextricably linked. We should stop this hype over man made climate change and force governments to stop wasting public money on a fools errand..money that could be better spent on health care, education and the elderly.
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M
Moz
I loved thised to bits ... it were good an great ..
except joe90
except joe90
B
Big_Spark
Joe..it is only 99% of the scientists you hear from that state Global warming is man made, and you often find that these researchers get their funding from environmental lobby groups, have strong environmentalist political views or their research, hence jobs, would simply not exist without man made climate change.
Oh, and generally the oil companies have jumped on the climate change bandwagon anyway.
I am able to think for myself, I understand that the climate of this planet fluctuates naturally, that gas concentrations in the atmosphere change over time and that the Ozone hole argument is a red herring.
Now I am not saying we should stop the drive to clean up our act, I am all for cleaner emmissions and a cleaner environment, however using the climate change argument is seriously flawed and will ultimately do the whole cause a lot of damage.
Governments are scaremongering about to keep the public off balance from the real issues that effect our everyday lives, such as Iraq, Taxation, the health service etc etc etc. Further they have cynically seen it as a way to increase our tax burden still further.
Until the arguments are shown to be flawed, the lunatics will continue to run the asylum.
Oh, and generally the oil companies have jumped on the climate change bandwagon anyway.
I am able to think for myself, I understand that the climate of this planet fluctuates naturally, that gas concentrations in the atmosphere change over time and that the Ozone hole argument is a red herring.
Now I am not saying we should stop the drive to clean up our act, I am all for cleaner emmissions and a cleaner environment, however using the climate change argument is seriously flawed and will ultimately do the whole cause a lot of damage.
Governments are scaremongering about to keep the public off balance from the real issues that effect our everyday lives, such as Iraq, Taxation, the health service etc etc etc. Further they have cynically seen it as a way to increase our tax burden still further.
Until the arguments are shown to be flawed, the lunatics will continue to run the asylum.
It matters little. What is obvious from the report and the response to the report is that the cost is going to be enormous and is going to hit us all where it hurts most.
Once we start paying a dubious "green tax" on certain things it is another way for the government to collect even more money. It may start off as "just 2p per mile" for car travel, or "just 18p per kilo" for rubbish collection but you can bet your life it won't stay at those levels for long.
Once we start paying a dubious "green tax" on certain things it is another way for the government to collect even more money. It may start off as "just 2p per mile" for car travel, or "just 18p per kilo" for rubbish collection but you can bet your life it won't stay at those levels for long.
B
Big_Spark
Joe, I think you should re-read my posts on this subject.
I have said that climate change is real, but that it is NATURAL not man made.
Secondly I stated in my last post, in reply to yours, that 99% of the scientists YOU HEAR from say it is man made. Those you do not hear from stay quiet, as the few who have spoken out have been pilloried by environmental groups, political advocates and climate chamge scientists, some have even been forced out of their jobs.
This is why you tend not to hear from the silent MAJORITY.
Global warming is a real phenomenon, but the real question is "What is the cause", the answer is extremely complicated, but it is a natural process that has occured over the 4000 million year life of Planet Earth.
Is man responsible, no, do we poinson the environment with unecessary discharges..Yes, and these should be stopped asap, but they are not the cause of climate change.
This planet has a very complicated interface between the surface and the atmosphere, more than 70% of this interface is liquid, and liquid that moves and is at various surface temperatures thus causing the gases above to heat unequally. This same process occurs over the land. It is this process that causes the low level weather we experience. Solar radiation has a major part in this process as it provides the original energy for the heat in the ocean and the land, but it also heats the atmosphere, to a greater or lesser degree, directly.
To further complicate the situation the planet has a very complicated motion in space. The Earth and Moon formwhat is, effectively, a double planet, the Moon is slowly moving away from Earth at a rate of about 1cm per decade as a result of orbital interactions with Earth. The Moon and Earth orbit a common centre of gravity that is some 2400 miles below the surface, not at the centre of the planet. Further the orbit of the moon is an ellipse, it is not perfectly circular, so the two partake in a merry dance around a point in space that happens to lie inside Earth.
This motion causes differential heating of the planet as radiation density from the sun varies. This variation is minute, less that 0.1%, but is is a difference. Then there is Earth's rotational axis, currently it lies near it's maximum of 26°, but this varies over a period of some 24,000 -28,000 years. This variation causes the lengths of given seasons to alter as you move away from the equator and will cause less or more heating at the Poles. To make matters worse, the planet actually spin like a top, in a slightly unstable way, and there is evidence that this builds up over geological time. The variation caused by the movement of the axis over time means the Solar radiation can vary up by around 2% at Northern and Southern latitudes. This is more than enough to cause the melting of glaciers or their formation.
Then there is a thing called precession, this is the slight matter of the planet's orbit moving arund the Sun, so the point in it's orbit where it is closest the Sun varies over thousands of years. This will have a dramatic effect on the planet over some 13,000 years. As the planet rotates on it's axis, it presents more or less of a given hemisphere to the Sun as it orbits, The northern hemisphere is tilted away from the Sun in our winter period, although on December 21st the planet is actually at it's perihelion point (closest the Sun). If you now tilt the Northern hemisphere toward the Sun at this time of year, it would mean that the "Summer" would occur in Jan/Feb/March and would likely be as hot as many parts of central Australia. Over time this occurs naturally, and our seasons naturally vary.
It is difficult to understand this process fully as the last time this occured, northern Europe was exiting a perios of glaciation, and although the CO² levels in the atmosphere were around 20% higher than today, the average temperature was about 4° cooler. The cause of the reapeating periods of glaciation in the Northern and Southern latitudes are a mystery.
Without going further, I think you will begin to see what a complicated process the atmosphere is, so many natural forces acting on it, mn simply lacks the punch to effect it globally.
Then there are those O³ holes over the poles. O³ is a very unstable molecule of Oxygen, it is formed easy and destroyed easy, especially by the impact of charged particles. The size of the holes vary with the season, we have all seen the lovely graphics, however what the reseachers don't tell you is that when a given Pole Hole is largest, it is pointed toward the Sun, and when at it's smallest, it is pointed AWAY from the Sun. Further, they fail to point out that the biggest cause of O³ destruction is charged particles from the Sun, normally Alpha and Beta particles (Ionised Hydrogen and Helium Nucei), but there are also ionised nuclei of neavier elements such as Lithium, Boron, Oxygen etc etc. These particles, being Ionised get caught in Earth's magnetic field, and then channelled to the magnetic Poles, which are some 5° away from the axial poles. These particles then slam into the gases of the upper atmosphere at speeds approaching that of light..this is the process that causes the Northern and Southern lights. It is also a process that destroys billions of tons of O³ every year, and the holes remain year around as this process occurs all the time, and there is no process for replenishing the O³ at these high latitudes as there are lower on the globe.
To emphasise this point, the extent of the holes has been seen to vary over a period of 11 years or so, matching exactly the period of the roughly 11 year Sun Spot cycle when the sun goes thorugh a relatively active period and there are more CME's and other energetic phenomena.
Global Climate Change is Natural, and we are fools to believe we have the power to effect the atmosphere on the scale we are talking about.
One Volcanic eruption can throw out as much CO², SO², CO, and other greenhouse gases as we can produce in 20 years at current rates..and about 50 eruptions of this magnitude occur annually either on the dry land or under the ocean. Some volcanoes are constantly pouring out noxious gases, such as Etna, Hawaii and the Icelandic shield, they have been for geologically long periods of time.
Yes we should stop pouring rubbish into our environment, it is not good for our health, but equally we should be realistic about the causes of climate change
I have said that climate change is real, but that it is NATURAL not man made.
Secondly I stated in my last post, in reply to yours, that 99% of the scientists YOU HEAR from say it is man made. Those you do not hear from stay quiet, as the few who have spoken out have been pilloried by environmental groups, political advocates and climate chamge scientists, some have even been forced out of their jobs.
This is why you tend not to hear from the silent MAJORITY.
Global warming is a real phenomenon, but the real question is "What is the cause", the answer is extremely complicated, but it is a natural process that has occured over the 4000 million year life of Planet Earth.
Is man responsible, no, do we poinson the environment with unecessary discharges..Yes, and these should be stopped asap, but they are not the cause of climate change.
This planet has a very complicated interface between the surface and the atmosphere, more than 70% of this interface is liquid, and liquid that moves and is at various surface temperatures thus causing the gases above to heat unequally. This same process occurs over the land. It is this process that causes the low level weather we experience. Solar radiation has a major part in this process as it provides the original energy for the heat in the ocean and the land, but it also heats the atmosphere, to a greater or lesser degree, directly.
To further complicate the situation the planet has a very complicated motion in space. The Earth and Moon formwhat is, effectively, a double planet, the Moon is slowly moving away from Earth at a rate of about 1cm per decade as a result of orbital interactions with Earth. The Moon and Earth orbit a common centre of gravity that is some 2400 miles below the surface, not at the centre of the planet. Further the orbit of the moon is an ellipse, it is not perfectly circular, so the two partake in a merry dance around a point in space that happens to lie inside Earth.
This motion causes differential heating of the planet as radiation density from the sun varies. This variation is minute, less that 0.1%, but is is a difference. Then there is Earth's rotational axis, currently it lies near it's maximum of 26°, but this varies over a period of some 24,000 -28,000 years. This variation causes the lengths of given seasons to alter as you move away from the equator and will cause less or more heating at the Poles. To make matters worse, the planet actually spin like a top, in a slightly unstable way, and there is evidence that this builds up over geological time. The variation caused by the movement of the axis over time means the Solar radiation can vary up by around 2% at Northern and Southern latitudes. This is more than enough to cause the melting of glaciers or their formation.
Then there is a thing called precession, this is the slight matter of the planet's orbit moving arund the Sun, so the point in it's orbit where it is closest the Sun varies over thousands of years. This will have a dramatic effect on the planet over some 13,000 years. As the planet rotates on it's axis, it presents more or less of a given hemisphere to the Sun as it orbits, The northern hemisphere is tilted away from the Sun in our winter period, although on December 21st the planet is actually at it's perihelion point (closest the Sun). If you now tilt the Northern hemisphere toward the Sun at this time of year, it would mean that the "Summer" would occur in Jan/Feb/March and would likely be as hot as many parts of central Australia. Over time this occurs naturally, and our seasons naturally vary.
It is difficult to understand this process fully as the last time this occured, northern Europe was exiting a perios of glaciation, and although the CO² levels in the atmosphere were around 20% higher than today, the average temperature was about 4° cooler. The cause of the reapeating periods of glaciation in the Northern and Southern latitudes are a mystery.
Without going further, I think you will begin to see what a complicated process the atmosphere is, so many natural forces acting on it, mn simply lacks the punch to effect it globally.
Then there are those O³ holes over the poles. O³ is a very unstable molecule of Oxygen, it is formed easy and destroyed easy, especially by the impact of charged particles. The size of the holes vary with the season, we have all seen the lovely graphics, however what the reseachers don't tell you is that when a given Pole Hole is largest, it is pointed toward the Sun, and when at it's smallest, it is pointed AWAY from the Sun. Further, they fail to point out that the biggest cause of O³ destruction is charged particles from the Sun, normally Alpha and Beta particles (Ionised Hydrogen and Helium Nucei), but there are also ionised nuclei of neavier elements such as Lithium, Boron, Oxygen etc etc. These particles, being Ionised get caught in Earth's magnetic field, and then channelled to the magnetic Poles, which are some 5° away from the axial poles. These particles then slam into the gases of the upper atmosphere at speeds approaching that of light..this is the process that causes the Northern and Southern lights. It is also a process that destroys billions of tons of O³ every year, and the holes remain year around as this process occurs all the time, and there is no process for replenishing the O³ at these high latitudes as there are lower on the globe.
To emphasise this point, the extent of the holes has been seen to vary over a period of 11 years or so, matching exactly the period of the roughly 11 year Sun Spot cycle when the sun goes thorugh a relatively active period and there are more CME's and other energetic phenomena.
Global Climate Change is Natural, and we are fools to believe we have the power to effect the atmosphere on the scale we are talking about.
One Volcanic eruption can throw out as much CO², SO², CO, and other greenhouse gases as we can produce in 20 years at current rates..and about 50 eruptions of this magnitude occur annually either on the dry land or under the ocean. Some volcanoes are constantly pouring out noxious gases, such as Etna, Hawaii and the Icelandic shield, they have been for geologically long periods of time.
Yes we should stop pouring rubbish into our environment, it is not good for our health, but equally we should be realistic about the causes of climate change
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There is a rake more to the whole concept of this 'global warming' debate, more than than first meets the eye to be sure..
...Milutin Milankovitch meticulously calculated the amount of sunlight each latitude received in every phase of Earth's orbital variations. His work culminated in the 1930 publication of Mathematical Climatology and the Astronomical Theory of Climate Change...
Worth a read Plenty of references too.
Is Stern .. a bit of a WMD'er?
News article
These guys ... http://www.climatescience.org.nz/ say they will audit statements by other organisations, both in New Zealand and overseas, which are published in New Zealand, or are expected to influence New Zealand public policy and public opinion... Good show !!
...Milutin Milankovitch meticulously calculated the amount of sunlight each latitude received in every phase of Earth's orbital variations. His work culminated in the 1930 publication of Mathematical Climatology and the Astronomical Theory of Climate Change...
Worth a read Plenty of references too.
Is Stern .. a bit of a WMD'er?
News article
These guys ... http://www.climatescience.org.nz/ say they will audit statements by other organisations, both in New Zealand and overseas, which are published in New Zealand, or are expected to influence New Zealand public policy and public opinion... Good show !!
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Big spark. The calculatable effects and 'wobbles' of the earth's motion are well-known and well plotted. However, scientists are just about all in agreement that what is currently happening is not due to cosmic influences.
There are virtually no dissenting voices in science today over why global warming is happening. It's got nothing to do with peer pressure swaying the thinking process.
When one man says the rest of the world is wrong - guess who is ALWAYS wrong?
There are virtually no dissenting voices in science today over why global warming is happening. It's got nothing to do with peer pressure swaying the thinking process.
When one man says the rest of the world is wrong - guess who is ALWAYS wrong?
explain something to a thick plumber joe
if global warming is man made
why are we not still in the ice age
oh yes cos it's happened before
if global warming is man made
why are we not still in the ice age
oh yes cos it's happened before
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