The war on terrorism

If Blair had not been foolish enough to get into this war he would not now be facing a narrowing poll gap for the forthcoming election. The sad thing is that I believe his intentions are good. His real mistake was to lie about the situation.

I do not object to the British Government using its position to try to do good in the world. I might even be a supporter of his present legislation if I believed what he has to say about the world situation. But as things stand he has said time and time again to trust him. On his personal honour to believe his unsupported word about how things really stood. And time and time again he or members of his government speaking on his behalf have been proven not to be telling it as it is. So be it. He has asked us to judge him by his words, and in this matter they have been more false than true.

I would respect him very much more had he stood up in parliament and stated that for economic reasons as well as humanitarian ones he intended to invade an essentially unarmed foreign nation. Or even simply because his ally America had requested it. Acknowledging that the result of this would inevitably be an unknown and unknowable number of dead british citizens and a huge financial cost. I would have respected him for his truth. It is the only way he could have had my support for this war. I do not like politicians who deceive. It is not possible to trust them with the right to lock anybody up.

As to her majesties opposition. Perhaps the conservative party would have felt even more obliged to support the Americans than did labour. Still a few favours owed for helping Maggie. I really doubt things would have turned out differently under a conservative regime.

Blair and new labour have been good for this country. No question about it. And no reason to think the conservatives could do better or even as well. But their aspirations to set the world to rights have been blown away by the hurricane from America.

If you do not show 'barbaric animals' fairness then you become one yourself. Worse yet, the cycle never ends. Does no one remember that world war two was really world war one part two? It was the revenge extracted by the victors in WW1 which allowed Hitler to come to power. And be absolutely certain that any bad treatment by the invading armies in Iraq will be repaid ten fold because of its propaganda value to the several freedom fighter groups in the region.

We do not have to 'do something'. Everything which needs to be done should have been done before the war started. Should have been done many years ago, because we have been fighting terrorists in this country for the whole of this century. Nothing unpredictable has happened. Politicians hate doing nothing. But it is can be a very wise thing to do.

And does no one remember that WW1 pretty much started by accident? Because various different countries felt obliged to come to the aid of their 'allies'.

Distancing us from our closest 'allies', the Americans? You mean the people whose policy has resulted in British citizens fearing being killed by terrorists at any minute? With friends like that.....

We will not get the chance to get rid of this government. The biggest possible change would be to install a conservative one instead. This is just choosing between apples and pears. Superficial differences, but absolutely no chance to influence matters which are really important to people. You want me to start on how I would reform the UK constitution to actually give people a say? The government has totally blocked all proposals to 'democratically' reform the Lords in any meaningful way. The conservatives would not have reformed it at all. (though arguably that would have left it more democratic than what Blair has done)
 
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You want me to start on how I would reform the UK constitution to actually give people a say? The government has totally blocked all proposals to 'democratically' reform the Lords in any meaningful way. The conservatives would not have reformed it at all. (though arguably that would have left it more democratic than what Blair has done)

Yes I would find more of your tosh amusing.
 
I have to support my mate Dave (david and julie) he is indeed "one of the biggest opponents of this Gov" he is probably more tory than Maggy thatcher (and once told me that he would "throw single mothers and their babies out on the streets.")

This is what I actually said Richard.

3. Unmarried single mums cheating the system, every pregnant girl cheats someone on the waiting list and no I would not take it out the children. Would you except state nurseries so these girls can get a job and pay rent instead of free flats and social? This would also stop the need for immigrants doing mundane jobs too.What I am saying is if we didn't pay these people for nothing they wouldn't do it as much. These pregnancies(in the main) are not accidents or mistakes.

You can read it here if you like.

//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=19879&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=405

//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=19879&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=390

I can't understand why people misquote to make a point, whilst we can copy and paste and refer back they will always discredit themselves.
 
david and julie said:
..........
Yes I would find more of your tosh amusing.

Why do you ridicule damocles' posts? I do not see his doing that with yours. He just up a view. You may not agree with anyone, but that does not make them wrong, or you right.
 
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The reason I find it tosh is because he is repeating the same things. I agreed about Blair, I agreed about Campbell, I agreed we shouldn't be endlessly interferring in other countries, but he still keeps raising these issues. The subject is nothing to do with Russia,WW2, Iraq or the US. I can understand and I share his concerns about this legislation having odious undertones, all I am saying is, what else can the government do if they know something is going down but the perpetrators are sitting back behind the scenes? Just because nothing serious as happened in the UK for a while doesn't mean they aren't trying, the security forces and the police may well be doing a good job at stopping them.

Why would the heads of the military and the police tell lies to defend an here today gone tomorrow politician, and especially one with a dubious record on honesty? It doesn't make sense. There must be an element of truth in what these people say, they are in the front line, they know much more than us, and need all the help they can get.

There are some freedoms which we must forego for the greater good and if this legislation helps I see no problem with it, given the circumstances.
 
..........all I am saying is, what else can the government do if they know something is going down but the perpetrators are sitting back behind the scenes? Just because nothing serious as happened in the UK for a while doesn't mean they aren't trying, the security forces and the police may well be doing a good job at stopping them.

So you've said it several times. Now think of something else to say. You wouldn't want to be like damocles would you?

Why would the heads of the military and the police tell lies to defend an here today gone tomorrow politician, and especially one with a dubious record on honesty? It doesn't make sense. There must be an element of truth in what these people say, they are in the front line, they know much more than us, and need all the help they can get.

You've said that a few times too. Yaaawwwwnnnnnnnn.

There are some freedoms which we must forego for the greater good and if this legislation helps I see no problem with it, given the circumstances.

You forego what ever you want, and what the hell is the greater good? (Don't bother answering). If you can't see the problems, just try listening to someone else, you might learn something.
 
just try listening to someone else, you might learn something.

OK, fire away then, convince me why I am so wrong.

Can you also let Damocles speak for him/herself.
 
Members of all the security forces swear alliegence to the crown. The government are all officers of the crown, the direct superiors of these men. Did no one ever tell you that the way to get on is to do what your boss tells you and keep him happy?

And just in case they decide to whistle blow instead, well there is the official secrets act to lock them up double quick. They might even be driven to suicide by the sheer number of people denouncing them for disagreeing with the official line. You have a short memory? There is utterly no excuse for hounding a civil servant to his death because he has dared to tell the truth.

I was repeating because you still seem to miss the point. I gave you more examples because what is happening now is nothing special. Similar things have happened before and will happen again. I will give any man the benefit of the doubt if I do business with him. But when he has proven to be untrustworthy once I will be very cautious indeed before believing him again. Especially when what he is saying is essentially the same as what was proven to be false before.

You also seem to be mixing up quantity with quality. The other lesson from just before this war was that the same untrue stories about Iraq were being passed around from Government to Government. Some believed them and some did not. But the source for all of it was the same. It was not American spies and British spies separately finding out about WMD. It was one lot passing a rumour to the other, which then got passed back and back again. Talking up a storm based upon what they wanted to believe, not what was.

Personally i am rather enjoying this little chat. Have a few home truths made you a little uncomfortable? it's only a scary world if you let it be.

I have no disrespect for men in the front line. It is almost certainly British soldiers who will die for this, not civilians at home. But the prime Minister has set the country on a course using untruths. He is now virtually committed to continue not telling the truth. To do otherwise could well be political suicide for him. So he has means, motive and opportunity as well as form. Enough for any police officer to have him down as number one suspect.

Is it possible to bring a private prosecution under the prevention of terrorism act? does the terrorism have to be against Britain?
 
Don't need to worry about a private prosecution, there is an action underway to impeach Bliar, and it will not make any difference if he stops being prime minister.

D&J, nothing convinces a bigot to change their mind so I won't bother trying to convince you.
 
oilman said:
Don't need to worry about a private prosecution, there is an action underway to impeach Bliar, and it will not make any difference if he stops being prime minister.

D&J, nothing convinces a bigot to change their mind so I won't bother trying to convince you.
well if thats the case Maggy should be done for war crimes over the "belgrano ".:cool:
 
The advantage you have Damocles is you are using hindsight in most of your comments. Such as WMD, I agree with you that Blair is probably a liar on this, but we don't know for certain whether he knew these weapons existed or not. He has to make his decisions based on the available information at the time. I accept many other countries declined to take part in Iraq, but many other western countries did, so they must of suspected something too. Blair may well be, but not all western countries are American lapdogs.

I do not believe that there is a requirement for heads of military or the police to tell lies to defend a prime minister or Government and no I was not a yes man for promotion, although you are probably right that many people in the civil service probably are.
 
Sometimes police and certainly spies are absolutely required to lie as part of their jobs. Do you recall that the government recently granted itself absolute powers to dismiss any chief constable they felt was not doing a good job?

The concept of shared responsibility within british cabinet government virtually says that those members of a cabinet who do not agree with a decision must either resign or say publicly that they do agree.

In this case, invading Iraq when that country posed no military threat to Britain and without UN sanction amounted to a war crime. Half of the government's problems were because they were trying to justify something not justified in international law. The Americans simply did not bother.

Blair did not need hindsight to know the real truth about Iraqi weaponry. The best disclosures we have had of actual internal intelligence reports have been much closer to the actual situation than were those officially released to the public and to parliament. If Blair really never saw those original reports then he has been shown to be incompetent. If he did, then he deliberately oversaw a campaign of misinformation. Neither gives us grounds to trust him now.

Whatever the reasons for this war, it was not because Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

Maggie did not commit a war crime. Argentina invaded us.
 
Sometimes police and certainly spies are absolutely required to lie as part of their jobs. Do you recall that the government recently granted itself absolute powers to dismiss any chief constable they felt was not doing a good job?

Spies I could understand, but I said top military and police officers not being required to tell lies to protect politicians. The second part refers to Chief Constables who are no good at their job in general, it was nothing to do with terrorism as such, so is irrelevant in this particular instance.

The concept of shared responsibility within british cabinet government virtually says that those members of a cabinet who do not agree with a decision must either resign or say publicly that they do agree.

Are you saying it does or it doesn't? you can't have it both ways.

In this case, invading Iraq when that country posed no military threat to Britain and without UN sanction amounted to a war crime. Half of the government's problems were because they were trying to justify something not justified in international law. The Americans simply did not bother.

I am not saying I agree with our going to war in Iraq because I don't but.

Sadam did throw out the UN inspectors for a very long time and it was only under military pressure from US and UK that they were allowed back. Now I am not suggesting WMD did or did not exist but many people believe he used this breathing space to conceal then anyway. We may never know for certain but Iraq is a big country it is not inconceivable that they may of been hidden. I thought US/UK used existing UN security council resolution 1441 (I think) which they said was valid at the time as justification for their actions.

Blair did not need hindsight to know the real truth about Iraqi weaponry. The best disclosures we have had of actual internal intelligence reports have been much closer to the actual situation than were those officially released to the public and to parliament. If Blair really never saw those original reports then he has been shown to be incompetent. If he did, then he deliberately oversaw a campaign of misinformation. Neither gives us grounds to trust him now.

Are you really saying you have seen reports that the general public and parliament hasn't seen? If yes can you provide a link, if you are correct I may then agree with you.

Whatever the reasons for this war, it was not because Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

I should imagine the war was about oil, can't see us disagreeing on that one, but what would you think?

Maggie did not commit a war crime. Argentina invaded us.

Well not strictly us (the UK) but I agree with what you are saying here.

I am not totally disagreeing with all your comments or opinions and some I do agree with. I share your concerns about Gov's abusing their power but I just believe we should not think the worst about what they do all the time. These are worrying times even if it is partly Blairs fault and we still need to be careful. I genuinely believe thats all their doing I don't think they have an agenda this time.
 
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