They need us more than we need them......

[Notch7]

I would chose option 3, ie no deal

no deal is not a resolution, something brexiteers seem to ignore, they believe no deal is an event, it is not.

All no deal would mean is the UK returning to Brussels for a deal.
And the EU would say: before a FTA, we want Irish border, divorce bill, citizens rights sorted.

and it is not a surrender bill.
What better deal do you think a no deal on the the table would yield?

 

[Lower]

No deal is a step forward and crystallises our relationship with EU and the rest of the world. Companies can start adapting and planning for a new way of working with all the opportunities and hardships that brings. No deal allows us to change our trade relationships with the rest of the world for one. No deal will force a resolution to the NI border issue that the EU are currently using as leverage. No deal allows us to focus on moving forward and ends the stagnation that we are currently in.

Having no deal on the table would force the EU to try to find a compromise that we could accept rather than knowing that if they don't offer a deal we want then we'll just end up not leaving, again.

I appreciate that you don't view it as a surrender bill because you don't want to leave. Those of us that do want to leave think that giving the EU the absolute right to determine our country's destiny is utterly wrong.

 

[JohnD]

It isn't a surrender bill. It is an Act of Parliament.

Who do you think you are surrendering to?

This country is governed by Parliament.

The Act prevents the Prime Minister, whoever that may be in a few weeks, from overruling or bypassing Parliament like some tinpot dictator.

 

[Lower]

It isn't a surrender bill. It is an Act of Parliament.

Who do you think you are surrendering to?

This country is governed by Parliament.

The Act prevents the Prime Minister, whoever that may be in a few weeks, from overruling or bypassing Parliament like some tinpot dictator.

You know who i think we are surrendering to. We are surrendering our ability to negotiate properly by surrendering our ability to threaten or chose no deal.

As for your 'tinpot dictator' comment, Boris has tried to hold an election twice but has been prevented by the same MP's who voted for the surrender bill. Those MP's have prevented your 'tinpot dictator' from negotiating a deal which works for the UK and they have then prevented him from giving the choice to the country in the form of an election.

Parliament isn't governing, its maintaining stagnation.

 

[JohnD]

You're complaining about surrendering to the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

You are ridiculous.

Nobody has prevented Buffoon from negotiating with the EU, but he hasn't bothered to try.

 

[Notch7]

Having no deal on the table would force the EU to try to find a compromise that we could accept rather than knowing that if they don't offer a deal we want then we'll just end up not leaving, again.

I understand that, but what compromise?
What improvement do you want on the current May deal?

The problem is that brexiteers, like youself, want a great free trade deal with the EU.
But at the same time you want to be able to go and do other trade deals around the world.
But those 2 things are contradictory.

If you want a free trade deal and enjoy frictionless trade, then you have to have regulatory alignment.
If you choose to get say a US trade deal, then you want regulatory divergence which means 3rd country status, hard borders and trade with friction.

So to return to to your argument on compromise, what do you think the EU can give, bearing in mind the options are integration or isolation.
You cant have both.
So no deal on the table is no advantage - because you dont want what the EU can give.

You just cant have open borders with different regulations -its impossible
It is the reason why Brexit as sold, is undeliverable

 

[EFLImpudence]

Why is it the EU's fault that the Irish threaten to kill each other when treated like any other country?

 

[ellal]

Funnily enough, my understanding was that the UK and Ireland were the driving forces behind the good friday agreement with some encouragement from the USA.
The EU may now be claiming that they are the sole defender of it when in reality its all about leverage to to try and force us into accepting a punitive deal.

The EU aren't claiming any such thing...

But one of those who led the talks thinks they had a role...

"The Good Friday Agreement would never have happened without the European Union, a former US senator who helped broker the deal has said.
Mr Mitchell said the European Union played a part in thawing relations between the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom which enabled the Northern Ireland peace process and was central to the Good Friday Agreement.

"I don't think the European Union was essential in the [Good Friday Agreement] talks themselves, but I believe the talks would never have occurred had there not been a European Union."

 

[Notch7]

s for your 'tinpot dictator' comment, Boris has tried to hold an election twice but has been prevented by the same MP's who voted for the surrender bill. Those MP's have prevented your 'tinpot dictator' from negotiating a deal which works for the UK and they have then prevented him from giving the choice to the country in the form of an election

And you know why, dont you?

Because the opposition dont trust Johnson, so they have refused to allow an election until after 31st Oct, so he cant change the date and force a no deal.

You seem to have allowed yourself to be hypnotised by Dominic Cummings, you certainly repeat all the same made up arguments.

Did you know terms like 'surrender bill', 'get brexit done', 'get ready for brexit' etc are all focus grouped soundbites created by Cummings designed to stoke up anger and get brexiteers united against a common enemy.
I bet you thought you werent so easily taken in.

Cummings is cynically using populism, UK politics has never stooped so low

 

[Vinty]

it is doing the opposite.

what serious trouble was brewing before the 2016 referendum?
A = none.

So Brexit has brought on these potential problems.
The EU is supporting Ireland by arguing there should not be a hard border.
The EU supports its small nations, including Ireland.

my understanding is that the GFA would not have happened without the EU.

The Belfast agreement happened because the IRA was a spent force and it finally dawned on them that they could not achieve their aims by force.
The real credit for peace in N. I. lies with the security forces, they rolled the IRA up like a tube of toothpaste.
Blair claimed credit along with Clinton and the EU for the IRA giving up violence, the truth was McGuiness and co. were desperately looking for away out when along came Blair and saved their skins.

 

[JohnD]

surrender bill

@Lower says that he wants the PM of the day to be able to rule the country without the consent of Parliament.

He claims that an Act of Parliament which requires the Prime Minister to do what the law of the land requires is making him "surrender" to the law.

I don't think Lower really believes either of those things.

 

[Notch7]

the truth was McGuiness and co. were desperately looking for away out when along came Blair and saved their skins

Well you would say that since you dont like Blair.

Do have any proof to back up your story?

 

[durhamplumber]

Do have any proof to back up your story?

It never stops you...say something,call it fact,,,,,bingo..it’s gospel

 

[SirGalahad]

No deal is a step forward and crystallises our relationship with EU and the rest of the world. Companies can start adapting and planning for a new way of working with all the opportunities and hardships that brings. No deal allows us to change our trade relationships with the rest of the world for one. No deal will force a resolution to the NI border issue that the EU are currently using as leverage. No deal allows us to focus on moving forward and ends the stagnation that we are currently in.

Having no deal on the table would force the EU to try to find a compromise that we could accept rather than knowing that if they don't offer a deal we want then we'll just end up not leaving, again.

I appreciate that you don't view it as a surrender bill because you don't want to leave. Those of us that do want to leave think that giving the EU the absolute right to determine our country's destiny is utterly wrong.

So you are surrendering to the Chinese, Americans, Japanese and India. If that's what you call a success.

Singapore on the Thames fantasists.

 

[SirGalahad]

Brexit has brought together two groups that normally would be antagonists - freemarket, low regulation zealots and blue collar workers, less educated. The freemarket zealots know exactly what Brexit entails a bonfire of regulation and fight to the bottom. The blue collar workers seem to think that Brexit will be their emancipation into the sunlit uplands - only one group will be laughing whilst the other will find they have been conned.