Third Class Degree Holders Can't Teach?

[Blasphemous]

Teachers need to meet several criteria: the ability to keep discipline; ability to build a rapport with their students; ability to pass on their knowledge to the student. But most important of all is a thorough knowledge of their subject. Not just at the level they are teaching but beyond that.

School kids are very good at sussing out teachers who do not know their subject and will make their life unbearable. I've seen it when I worked in a sixth form college. There were IT teachers who knew less than the technicians who maintained the computers.

Compare that with the professors who deliver the annual Royal Institute lectures to school children at Christmas. The children range in age from about seven to 16. The subject is often difficult even for some adults to follow, but it is well presented with excellent demonstrations and the kids sit there without any problems, keen to participate.

The reason is simple: the lecturer knows his stuff inside out - no sneaky referring to the text book.

It may not be perfect, but I would rather my grandchildren were taught by someone who knows their subject than by someone who thinks they know their subject.

I agree BUT, the children at the Christmas Lectures 'want' to be there. Children 'have to' go to school whether they want to or not (I assume the most unruly won't bother attending anyway). So although I agree with what you're saying in general, I don't think we can compare the two 'audiences'.

 

[tim west]

or that they make learning more exciting and fun

 

[dextrous]

I assume the most unruly won't bother attending anyway.

Sadly not the case Blas. Where else can they run amok, knowing full well that they will be safe from "real world" chastisement for their inappopriate, sociopathic and selfish behaviour?

Moreover, "social inclusion" closed specialised units for some of the worse within our society (regardless of the "moral" arguments, it was done for purely financial reasons), and threw them back into mainstream school, regardless of the huge disruption caused to the reasonably well adjusted students who were and are happy to play ball.

 

[big-all]

Compare that with the professors who deliver the annual Royal Institute lectures to school children at Christmas. The children range in age from about seven to 16. The subject is often difficult even for some adults to follow, but it is well presented with excellent demonstrations and the kids sit there without any problems, keen to participate.

The reason is simple: the lecturer knows his stuff inside out - no sneaky referring to the text book.

It may not be perfect, but I would rather my grandchildren were taught by someone who knows their subject than by someone who thinks they know their subject.

i think its even simpler than you suggest
disruptive johny or rebelous rebeca are dragged shouting and screaming to school as they dont want to be there they will disrupt and take every oppertunity to not attend

the lecture are filled from lists wittled down to the lucky few who would give there high teeth to be there
so not quite the easy conclusion you have come to

sorry didnt realise the point had been coverd by the last few people

 

[D_Hailsham]

Disruptive Johnny or rebellious Rebecca are dragged shouting and screaming to school as they don't want to be there. They will disrupt and take every opportunity to not attend.

But why is Johnny disruptive and Rebecca rebellious? Could it be that they are bored with the lessons because they realize that the teachers do not know their stuff?

There must be countless cases of teachers who, when complaining to parents about their children's behaviour, receive the truthful reply, "But (s)he's not like that at home or when we go out."

 

[big-all]

i shure we could go int a pontless discussion about the all the social problems thought society that are contributing to the down turn in society in general

indeed some will be caused by bored children some will be caused because off lack of parental disipline some will be caused by excessive home disipline

some will be caused by peer pressure ect ect ect
none off these points are directly connected to your statement
the point i was making one is preaching to the converted and one has the task to wake them all up before he can preach and then convert them

 

[dextrous]

Disruptive Johnny or rebellious Rebecca are dragged shouting and screaming to school as they don't want to be there. They will disrupt and take every opportunity to not attend.

But why is Johnny disruptive and Rebecca rebellious? Could it be that they are bored with the lessons because they realize that the teachers do not know their stuff?

or indeed the stuff that teachers are expected to teach is blox and aimed more for the purpose of assessments and government targets than for it's intrinsic value

There must be countless cases of teachers who, when complaining to parents about their children's behaviour, receive the truthful reply, "But (s)he's not like that at home or when we go out."

So what - this is a completely different scenario. There are no doubt children who are a nightmare at home who behave well in school due to the levels of social interaction available to them in a school. Also, how many times will a parent insist that his or her child has to sit through something which has been forced to become mundane and get a positive reaction?

 

[D_Hailsham]

or indeed the stuff that teachers are expected to teach is blox and aimed more for the purpose of assessments and government targets than for it's intrinsic value

I agree that assessments and targets can be given too high a priority. But I don't think that lesson content is geared towards that in all schools; probably in a minority of "failing" schools which are trying desperately not to be put under "special measures".

There must be countless cases of teachers who, when complaining to parents about their children's behaviour, receive the truthful reply, "But (s)he's not like that at home or when we go out."

So what - this is a completely different scenario. There are no doubt children who are a nightmare at home who behave well in school due to the levels of social interaction available to them in a school.

But, in both cases, neither parents nor teachers would recognise the other's description of the child's behaviour.

Also, how many times will a parent insist that his or her child has to sit through something which has been forced to become mundane and get a positive reaction?

You've lost me there. In what way is the parent "insisting"? Do you mean that they insist that the child goes to school or what? We are, after all, talking about compulsory education. What do you mean by "something which has been forced to become mundane"?

 

[jerryjacson]

Third class degree holder can teach only when he have proper knowledge of that subject to face the pupils query.

 

[PE]

I've never been a fan of Corny Brown and certainly not one of Tony Bliar, but this latest from Dandy Cameron is just plain daft!

If you have a Third Class Degree you won't be allowed to teach

What planet is he on? Or more likely what side of the classroom is he coming from?

I would suggest that the some of the better teachers are because of their teaching skills i.e. their approach to pupils, thier ability to maintain discipline, their ability to explain the subject, their experience, and their flexibility....not the class of their degree.

I think teaching can, in itself, be a skill. Which is different to being capable in the subject in which you're qualified.

I've often said that a good teacher can teach just about most subjects, just by staying ahead of the pupils and because of their teaching ability, and someone who understands their subject well can teach, just by the breadth and depth of their knowledge. But having a First or Second will not make you a better teacher than having a Third

I do understand the sentiment behind the thinking though. Someone who has achieved a 3rd class degree either hasn't worked their socks off or doesn't have a really really good understanding of the subject they have studied for the past few years. It is a pass but just, at the end of the day over a 3 or 4 year period.

The whole concept of the change is as I understand it, to bring up the standards required to even become a teacher in the first place, so it is more in line with other professions, rather than the dumbing down that has previously happened whereby a 1 year course gets you a teachers job.

Do I think it will work? Well who knows, not sure how any changes and cherry picking so called higher standard people will be funded when cuts are inevitable.

I do believe we should be trying to attract the best and brightest people into passing that knowledge with our future adults though do you not?
I do accept that qualifications do not give people ability to teach well though

As mentioned above would be nice if some of the other social factors and parents who really shouldn't even be parents were sorted aswell but that is probably somewhat harder to achieve

 

[RedHerring]

I do understand the sentiment behind the thinking though. Someone who has achieved a 3rd class degree eitehr hasn't worked their socks off or doesn't have a really really good understanding of the subject they ahve studied for the past few years. It is a pass but just at the end of the day over a 3 or 4 year period.

I think your comment about not working their socks off is perhaps more accurate than the comment about lack of understanding of the subject. Sometimes it may not be possible for someone to work their socks off due to other circumstances.

The whole concept of the change is as I understand it, to bring up the standards required to even become a teacher in the first place, so it is more in line with other professions, rather than the dumbing down that has previously happened whereby a 1 year course gets you a teachers job.

My point about the class of the degree making better teachers still holds, I think. There is far more to teaching than the depth of knowledge in your subject.

Do I think it will work? Well who knows, not sure how any changes and cherry picking so called higher standard people will be funded when cuts are inevitable.

I do believe we should be trying to attract the best and brightest people into hiring that knowledge with our future adults though do you not?

It's surely 'horses for courses' isn't. Yes you want the best and the brightest to teach the best and the brightest. But that hardly bears scrutiny when some schools even scrap the 'streaming' differentiation of pupils.

As metioned above would be nice if some of the other social factors and parents who really shouldn't even be parents were sorted aswell but that is probably somewhat harder to achieve

Perhaps the above mentioned scrapping of 'streaming' creates a certain amount of misbehaviour also. Now it's not just the naturally disruptive elements causing problems, but also the bored, brighter pupils waiting for the slower pupils to catch up.

I appreciate your opinions but don't you think that it'll lead to fewer third class degrees in the long run. For instance, the degree awarded is very much at the discretion of the examiner and they often move the 'debateable' students up a notch. So if Cameron's suggestion ever became policy I think the examiners would be moving the 'higher' third class degrees up to second's.

 

[PE]

I think your comment about not working their socks off is perhaps more accurate than the comment about lack of understanding of the subject. Sometimes it may not be possible for someone to work their socks off due to other circumstances.

Not really relevant to whether they should have got a third though is it.

My point about the class of the degree making better teachers still holds, I think. There is far more to teaching than the depth of knowledge in your subject.

Agreed but its is still a point

It's surely 'horses for courses' isn't. Yes you want the best and the brightest to teach the best and the brightest. But that hardly bears scrutiny when some schools even scrap the 'streaming' differentiation of pupils.

But its a start and other areas can be worked on. Don't forget this is an election policy and designed to grab headlines and appeal to those who have a certain moral standard of what they believe teachers should still be able to offer

Perhaps the above mentioned scrapping of 'streaming' creates a certain amount of misbehaviour also. Now it's not just the naturally disruptive elements causing problems, but also the bored, brighter pupils waiting for the slower pupils to catch up.

Maybe but as you say thats just speculaltion.

I appreciate your opinions but don't you think that it'll lead to fewer third class degrees in the long run. For instance, the degree awarded is very much at the discretion of the examiner and they often move the 'debateable' students up a notch. So if Cameron's suggestion ever became policy I think the examiners would be moving the 'higher' third class degrees up to second's.

Can't see how that would be relevant really. Not sure percentage of graduates that actually go into teaching. The oevrall effect on the "Ok" students through the "exceptional" students would be minimal I would expect.

It won't happen anyway -its a an election promise and don't forget these get forgotten once in power!

 

[RedHerring]

I think your comment about not working their socks off is perhaps more accurate than the comment about lack of understanding of the subject. Sometimes it may not be possible for someone to work their socks off due to other circumstances.

Not really relevant to whether they should have got a third though is it.

Well it was meant to be relevant. Suppose a scenario of say 10 continuous assesments throughout the course, ending with a 3 hour exam.

The students who have to work through their studies, those who suffer some personal trauma, etc, can all contribute towards a poor score on the assesments. (Although assessors will make allowance for this if they are aware of such circumstances). Often the exam score is as little as 30% of the overall degree classification.

I have to wholeheartedly agree with your final comment. But isn't it a sad indictment of our election process and the low esteem that our politicians have of the electorate.

 

[WDIK]

there are those that can and those that cant.

those that can do.

those that cant teach

 

[RedHerring]

Yeah, about as accurate and as useful as saying 'a watched pot never boils'.

Incidentally, talking about misapprehensions:
The HR people use to consider married men more responsible than single men when considering employment. Now they realise that they had mixed up cause and effect: more reliable men are more likely to be married.