Third Party Certifiers

[Joelc]

Hi All,

Given that getting a straight and clear answer out of my LABC is like herding cats, I have changed plans and am looking at getting a third party to come and certify my electrical work. To be clear, I have not yet started the work, as per the regs, so I need to either have BC involved or appoint a TPC before I start works

I've been planning my house rewire for some time, I have done all the design, done all my calculations and was happy enough to submit my notice to building control yesterday - So I submitted the notice, and included a copy of the design for their reference. I get a call this morning from them to say that they do not undertake this kind of work and told me that I must get a third party to inspect and test - originally they told me they would need to do a first fix inspection, then an inspection after I have completed the testing, then a final inspection when it was all complete.

I called them again for clarification, and they said that I have two options:

1) Submit a building notice, they will inspect at first fix and then I need to get a competent person to issue the BS7617 certificate and then they will then if required test and then issue the completion certificate

2) get a third party to inspect and test and not involve BC

So, I think the easier option will be option 2, and will probably not be much more in cost than option 1.

So - anyone any ideas when they are planning to have the third party certification scheme up and running? I saw some details on the IET and other sources that they are hoping to have something for October this year.

 

[JohnW2]

So - anyone any ideas when they are planning to have the third party certification scheme up and running? I saw some details on the IET and other sources that they are hoping to have something for October this year.

I'm heard such rumours, too, but won't believe anything until I see it!

Perhaps of more practical importance is whether (m)any electricians will choose to join any such schemes, even if they are set up, particularly if (as one suspects is likely) it costs money to join! Particularly now that so little electrical work is notifiable (in England), one imagines that the market for any 'third-party certification' would be pretty small, and there is also a limit to how much electricians could charge for such a service (not to mention potentially doing their profession out of some work!).

Kind Regards, John

 

[Joelc]

So - anyone any ideas when they are planning to have the third party certification scheme up and running? I saw some details on the IET and other sources that they are hoping to have something for October this year.

I'm heard such rumours, too, but won't believe anything until I see it!

Perhaps of more practical importance is whether (m)any electricians will choose to join any such schemes, even if they are set up, particularly if (as one suspects is likely) it costs money to join! Particularly now that so little electrical work is notifiable (in England), one imagines that the market for any 'third-party certification' would be pretty small, and there is also a limit to how much electricians could charge for such a service (not to mention potentially doing their profession out of some work!).

Kind Regards, John

Thats what I see being an issue - however it will put people in a situation where they cannot complete DIY work, especially if the LABC are pushing people down that route.

 

[JohnW2]

Thats what I see being an issue - however it will put people in a situation where they cannot complete DIY work, especially if the LABC are pushing people down that route.

I haven't heard any suggestion that the current option for a DIYer (or, indeed, a non-self-cert electrician) to notify work directly to LABC is going to go away, so if the 'third party certifier' idea falls flat on its face (which I suspect that it well might, at least in practice), that 'old' (i.e. the current) option will presumably still exist. The LABC cannot push people down a route if it doesn't exist (literally, or in a usable form) - AFAIAA, they cannot 'refuse to accept' a notification/application from anyone.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Joelc]

Thanks,

I think the LABC either are misinformed or are just trying to put off this work.

I want to comply with the law obviously - however I don't know why it has to be as difficult as is.

One question, if I go via building notice, and I do the testing - should that be satisfactory for BC to accept (and verify if required) as far as I read it, the BC should establish competency (Probably 0 in terms of what they would count me as) and then undertake verification as they see fit for the competency level.

Joel

 

[JohnW2]

I think the LABC either are misinformed or are just trying to put off this work.

Probably both!

One question, if I go via building notice, and I do the testing - should that be satisfactory for BC to accept (and verify if required) as far as I read it, the BC should establish competency (Probably 0 in terms of what they would count me as) and then undertake verification as they see fit for the competency level.

Unfortunately for you, only the individual LABC can answer that one. As you say, in order to accept your testing and documentation they would have to be satisfied of your 'competence' (everyday sense). It sounds as if they probably wouldn't regard you as competent, but different authorities have different attitudes and opinions! One sometimes hears, for example, of people who have been regarded by LABC's as 'competent' because they have a degree in electrical engineering, even though they've never worked as electricians!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I strongly advise not going down the Building Notice path - do a full submission.

 

[Joelc]

I strongly advise not going down the Building Notice path - do a full submission.

What's the difference? I didn't think there was need for a full submission with regards to electrical work.

 

[JohnW2]

I strongly advise not going down the Building Notice path - do a full submission.

What's the difference? I didn't think there was need for a full submission with regards to electrical work.

There isn't a 'need' - you're perfectly free to use either a Building Notice or a 'Full Plans' application, but the latter is probably much 'safer'. As I understand it, if you use the Building Notice route, you could get to an advanced stage of the work and then find that BC didn't like something about the design or whatever of what you were doing - and tell you to rip it all out and start again. With a 'Full Plans' submission, any such issues are likely to arise before you start.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

What's the difference?

A risk:reward ratio > 1.

It costs no less to do a Building Notice than a Full Plans submission, so no reward, and yet it exposes you to more risk.

Note, BTW, that you don't actually have to submit drawings showing where you plan to put sockets and switches etc.

 

[securespark]

Anal SMBC asked me to do just that...

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Did you ask them to explain why? What value that had to them over a written description?

I think I'd have been tempted (in fact, I know I would have been and would have given in) to draw some BS 7671 contraventions to see if they noticed.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Anal SMBC

 

[flameport]

What's the difference? I didn't think there was need for a full submission with regards to electrical work.

The difference is that full plans is intended for the majority of people to use.

Building notices are intended for highly experienced contractors who already know exactly how to comply with all of the relevant regulations, and hence do not need to submit any plans for prior approval.

Third party certifiers are a big can of worms which no one has dared to open yet. When they do, you can expect trouble.

 

[JohnW2]

Third party certifiers are a big can of worms which no one has dared to open yet. When they do, you can expect trouble.

As I've said, I personally suspect that, even if schemes are set up, it is not really going to happen - at least, to any significant extent.

There clearly are 'cans of worms' associated with all of these issues, but would 'third party certification' actually be materially different from what some. maybe many, LABCs seem to be doing already? AFAICC, the only real difference (for those LABCs that do this) would be that the 'third party' (whatever (s)he was called) would be appointed by the installer/DIYer, rather than by the LABC.

One interesting point (which I haven't seen discussed) is that, in talking about third-party certification, Approved Doc P says that the third-party certify will undertake an 'EICR' and provide the EICReport on a BS7671 form or equivalent. Does this imply that a 'full' EICR (i.e. of the whole installation) would have to be undertaken, even if the work done, although notifiable, were very small and 'circumscribed' (e.g. installing a shower, or providing a new circuit for an outhouse).

Kind Regards, John