Tony Blair.

[vinty]

Tony wants to make it an imprisonable offence to question the holocaust.

That is not true.

You really must stop telling lies.

There is no suggestion that Blair or his group made a proposal for "questioning" or "doubting" to be offences. Have a look at the first post on this thread. It is a lie, probably intended to stir up argument.

What was Blairs proposal then, from what I have read his group are lobbying governments around Europe to make it an offence across the entire EU(that includes the UK) to question the Holocaust, is that incorrect?.

 

[JohnD]

I have no idea where you read it or what, exactly, your source said.

Try to find a reliable source.

That excludes Joe.

 

[Belboz]

What was Blairs proposal then, from what I have read his group are lobbying governments around Europe to make it an offence across the entire EU(that includes the UK) to question the Holocaust, is that incorrect?.

As I said on Page 1, he wouldn't need to as there already exists the following provision:

European Union Framework Decision for Combating Racism and Xenophobia (2007)

- Publicly condoning, denying or grossly trivialising

- crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes as defined in the Statute of the International Criminal Court (Articles 6, 7 and 8 ) directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin, and

- crimes defined by the Tribunal of Nuremberg (Article 6 of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal, London Agreement of 1945) directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin.

Member States may choose to punish only conduct which is either carried out in a manner likely to disturb public order or which is threatening, abusive or insulting.

The reference to religion is intended to cover, at least, conduct which is a pretext for directing acts against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin.

Member States will ensure that these conducts are punishable by criminal penalties of a maximum of at least between 1 and 3 years of imprisonment

So why would we need an alternative provision?

 

[JohnD]

Vinty will see there is nothing about "questioning" in there.

 

[Belboz]

Vinty will see there is nothing about "questioning" in there.

Yes but the EU offence remains open to definition. For example, The Spanish Constitutional Court ruling remarked...

Moreover, defining “denial” is a daunting task as Adam Jones has shown, since it may entail different degrees:

- Rejecting historical facts: “Nobody died”.

- Discussing the degree of the deed: “Almost anybody died, not six million in any case”.

- Disregarding or multiplying causes: “Wartime conditions and various illnesses caused most deaths”;

- Disagreeing about intent or central planning:

I do not include the full text but it is clear that the 'legal eagles' may well attempt to define 'deny' and 'trivialise' in a much wider context. This could well include a much more encompassing 'offence'.

 

[jeds]

Are saying that because crema capable of burning only one body at a time were considered inefficient for the task of exterminating millions of people the solution was to build more of the same type.

The one at a time thing is a red herring started by Joe. The crema ovens had a capacity of thousands per month.

If you accept that the Germans didn't burn all their victims what did they do with them?.

There were thousands of camps, most of which didn't even have crematoria.

There were 20 million military casualties during WW1 and the vast majority of their bodies are still out there somewhere. Nobody knows where.

 

[noseall]

There were 20 million military casualties during WW1 and the vast majority of their bodies are still out there somewhere. Nobody knows where.

Where are they? A population many times the size of Bristol and you can't show me the bodies? It never happened. WWI never happened if you can't show me where they put the bodies of ten thousand Wembey stadia.
Where are they John? Show me or it never happened WWI is a lie.

 

[Brigadier]

Vinty will see there is nothing about "questioning" in there.

The EU Framework is supposed to be abided by, by member states. As long as they do so, they are fine.

Some member states simply transcribe the exact wording of the EU document into their own legislature; others reinterpret or amend the wording. Provided that their revised wording still addresses the fundamental spirit of the original, no problem.

Perhaps Blair is proposing additional provisions be written into the UK legislation, above and beyond the minimum requirements of the EU dictat.

 

[JohnD]

Perhaps Blair is proposing additional provisions be written into the UK legislation, above and beyond the minimum requirements.

No, Joe just made it up.

 

[joe-90]

There were 20 million military casualties during WW1 and the vast majority of their bodies are still out there somewhere. Nobody knows where.

Where are they? A population many times the size of Bristol and you can't show me the bodies? It never happened. WWI never happened if you can't show me where they put the bodies of ten thousand Wembey stadia.
Where are they John? Show me or it never happened WWI is a lie.

Are you saying they bury injured soldiers? How many of them actually died then?

 

[joe-90]

The one at a time thing is a red herring started by Joe. The crema ovens had a capacity of thousands per month.

Don't be silly. Who in their right mind would burn one body at a time taking two hours to burn each when there were 11,000,000 of them?

 

[noseall]

The one at a time thing is a red herring started by Joe. The crema ovens had a capacity of thousands per month.

Don't be silly. Who in their right mind would burn one body at a time taking two hours to burn each when there were 11,000,000 of them?

Did anybody say the Nazis were sane?

 

[vinty]

They were taken away to concentration camps.
They went without ever being seen again.
After the war, they didn't even try to draw their money out of the foreign banks they'd put it in, or to claim valuable works of art that had been seized.
They didn't contact their relations in the USA or the UK, and they didn't return to their homes in Holland.
They didn't take up their old businesses as traders, engineers or authors. They didn't claim their pensions.
We know nowhere that millions of people could arrive without being noticed.
There were very few trains and ships in working order, and their use was carefully rationed.
Food was in short supply and was rationed.
Palestine was occupied by British forces, who had plenty of cameras, until 1948.

Occams razor says they were dead.

Joe says they weren't.

How many Jews were reported missing after the second world war, Check the figures with the International tracing service.

 

[noseall]

Where are they now then? You'd need a heck of a long time and a lot of lorries to cart that stuff away.

Aerial photos taken by the Allies showed that the roofs of crematoria buildings Krema II and Krema III at Birkenau had been removed in November 1944, so that the cremation ovens could be removed by cranes.

 

[vinty]

You can't stop people questioning things.

No but you can legislate to punish those who do , but then such a law is open to reinterpretation and misuse.

It is very noticeable that Joe claims these millions of people were not murdered, but were living and walking about somewhere in the world, but he cannot think of a convincing explanation of why no-one has ever been able to see them.

Who are "they" any names?