Tony Blair.

[vinty]

It's because anyone that raises the issue gets jailed.

Why would they if you can PROVE it never happened?

If you have this overwhelming evidence that the holocaust never happened then there is no crime.

So why are the gullible Germans still paying Joey?

Are you being purposely obtuse?

It's for you to PROVE that the holocaust happened.

Just like I would have to PROVE that aliens landed in Hyde Park, not prove that they didn't.

The Germans are paying because their paymasters say they must.

Hate to correct you cocker, but the burden of proof is really on you for this one. If you are going against the established historical record, you are the one that needs to provide proof.

And when I say proof, I mean proof, not a few bits of information taken entirely out of context.

The onus is on those who claim millions died in Gas chambers to prove it.if a bloke walks up to me in a pub and claims to be jesus is the onus on me to prove him wrong or is up to him to show evidence to back up his claim.

 

[joe-90]

Where are they now then? You'd need a heck of a long time and a lot of lorries to cart that stuff away.

Aerial photos taken by the Allies showed that the roofs of crematoria buildings Krema II and Krema III at Birkenau had been removed in November 1944, so that the cremation ovens could be removed by cranes.

You can't remove brick ovens with cranes. I thought you were a builder.

 

[vinty]

I have no idea where you read it or what, exactly, your source said.

Try to find a reliable source.

That excludes Joe.

What source would you recommend, Wikipedia.

 

[vinty]

Why would they make ovens that only burned one body at a times?

Joe refers to single-person crematoria, ignoring the information given earlier.

.... The memo quotes the capacity of the 6 ovens as 250 per day.

The memo goes on to say that another 10 ovens were under construction, which would have a further capacity of 800 per day and another 16 were being redirected from another camp which would add another 800. That's 32 ovens with a capacity of 1850 bodies per day. The letter also says that Krone stated that this number was insufficient and more ovens must be delivered as quickly as possible.

At the peak a total of 52 ovens were in operation at the Auschwitz complex with a capacity of 2650 per day - or 80,000 per month. Nobody denies this,

I suppose Joe would find it more difficult to address the point, so he ignores it.

These cremation rates you quote are pure fantasy, modern computer controlled ovens can't even come near those rates, according to the so called eye witness's they could shove up to 5 bodies into an oven designed to take one body and cremate the lot within 30/40 mins.
Modern cremation ovens operating at the optimum 1400/1600 degrees take on average two to two and a half hours to cremate 1 body.
The manufacturers who installed the ovens in the camps also had large agricultural incinerators in their product range which would have been far better suited for mass cremation.
The fact that the eye witness's claim that they were so overwhelmed by the sheer volume of bodies that they had to force multiple bodies into ovens designed only for one indicates that either the Nazi's got their calculations drastically wrong when planning the Holocaust or some one is telling porkies.
This bloke Prufer ended his days in a Russian Gulag, his confessions of complicity along with his memos should be taken with a very large pinch of salt.

 

[vinty]

Are saying that because crema capable of burning only one body at a time were considered inefficient for the task of exterminating millions of people the solution was to build more of the same type.

The one at a time thing is a red herring started by Joe. The crema ovens had a capacity of thousands per month.

If you accept that the Germans didn't burn all their victims what did they do with them?.

There were thousands of camps, most of which didn't even have crematoria.

There were 20 million military casualties during WW1 and the vast majority of their bodies are still out there somewhere. Nobody knows where.

In the last 20 years since the fall of the Soviet Union the Russians have allowed the Germans to recover their war dead, to date the Germans have recovered over 500,000 and identified a further 600,000 ,all this is over a vast area, they have also uncovered remains dating back to the Napoleonic wars, although they will never recover all the dead they have done enough to prove that huge numbers of people cant be killed without leaving some trace, According to Historians 4 million people were gassed to death in a relatively small area of Poland but to date they haven't produced a single body that has been proven to have died from gas poisoning.

 

[jeds]

This bloke Prufer ended his days in a Russian Gulag, his confessions of complicity along with his memos should be taken with a very large pinch of salt.

Why he would write it? His correspondence details the ovens, the designs, the installation schedules and clearly outlines the capacities as thousands per month. In what situation would anybody make that up? I can see a situation where he might exaggerate the capacity or even have been hopeful but not by thousands difference. He certainly wouldn't have been trying to fool the SS officers into thousands when the capacity was actually dozens. No, there is no reason for him to write these things other than they were facts he believed at the time.

And confessions have nothing to do with what I posted. I am in agreement that many eye witness statements and quite a lot of what has been written after the event is unreliable. But the Prufer documents, and thousands of other documents and reports, were written in the cold light of day at the time. No historical influence, no memory to rely on, no agenda, just cold written facts that document the situation of the day.

 

[joe-90]

Jeds. To cremate that number you would have to prove science wrong. Your Nobel Prize awaits you.

 

[jeds]

Jeds. To cremate that number you would have to prove science wrong. Your Nobel Prize awaits you.

Nothing magic about it. Each oven took between 90 and 120 minutes to complete with a capacity of three or four depending on size - let's say three. 52 ovens running 20 hours per day for 275 days per year would cremate half a million bodies. Those are conservative figures of course. In reality they would be running 24 hours a day for much of the time and certainly more than 275 days per year during the peak years. You could cut the figures by 50% and you'd still be well over a million bodies in 4 to 5 years of operation.

 

[joe-90]

Err no they didn't. Common sense should tell you that if it takes a modern cremating oven two hours to burn one body with a burner that looks like a jet fighter afterburner, then to burn two will take four hours and three will take six hours. Putting five bodies in an oven designed to take one body (they don't fit btw) would probably stop the oven from working and put the thing out. Also, the records for the amount of coke used at the camp are available - and nowhere near enough went to that camp to burn millions of bodies. If we can't do it today - then they surely couldn't do it in a wartime camp. Aren't you a structural engineer? Well why don't you understand the first thing about science?

 

[jeds]

Err no they didn't. Common sense should tell you that if it takes a modern cremating oven two hours to burn one body with a burner that looks like a jet fighter afterburner, then to burn two will take four hours and three will take six hours. Putting five bodies in an oven designed to take one body (they don't fit btw) would probably stop the oven from working and put the thing out. Also, the records for the amount of coke used at the camp are available - and nowhere near enough went to that camp to burn millions of bodies. If we can't do it today - then they surely couldn't do it in a wartime camp. Aren't you a structural engineer? Well why don't you understand the first thing about science?

It's not the same as a modern situation. The majority of the bodies they were dealing with were skin and bone with virtually no fat and very low levels of water, typically less than 50kg or 60kg. They also weren't concerned with decent treatment of the bodies. The Topf and sons ovens were also industrial types originally designed for large animals and adapted for human use. It's also recorded that many bodies were under cremated and archaeologists have specifically commented on that fact. So 90 to 120 minutes is viable and I see no technical problem with that.

You still haven't addressed the contemporary records. Why would Topf say the capacity was thousands per month? Why did they need 52 ovens? Why did they need over 800 stokers? That's 16 per oven. If you were generous and said four per oven that would be three 8 hour shifts per 24 hours. All these facts from different sources confirm the figures. The German soldier who wrote the report knew nothing of Prufer yet their reports, made at different times, for different reasons, concur.

 

[joe-90]

You've got to stop bypassing your intellect. They were single body crematoria. No-one doubts that. They were far less efficient that modern crematoria. Nobody doubts that. They loaded manually, not mechanically. It takes two hours to cremate a body TODAY. Nobody doubts that. And yes the bodies cremated were skin and bone. The reason they were skin and bone is that they died from typhus and cremation is the only safe way to dispose of the body without contaminating the water supplies. So you have weakened your argument considerably. Only able bodied men can work - and thus you have proven that only typhus victims were burnt. Stop switching off your intellect. They needed 800 stokers because as an industrial nation most of industry was steam powered. So why does that surprise you? They were work camps. Not death camps. You still haven't told us where they got rid of the ashes and partially burnt bodies. They would still be there today - so where are they? We are talking about the equivalent to the population of Sweden Where are they? Use your brain man and wise up.

 

[joe-90]

I see Jeds has gone quiet now he's defeated his own argument.

 

[mikeey84]

I see Jeds has gone quiet now he's defeated his own argument.

Do you still think bodies don't burn? Seem to remember you were quite certain about that fact earlier...

 

[joe-90]

I see Jeds has gone quiet now he's defeated his own argument.

Do you still think bodies don't burn? Seem to remember you were quite certain about that fact earlier...

Do you think they do? 75% water? Are you on drugs?

 

[jeds]

I see Jeds has gone quiet now he's defeated his own argument.

Some of us have to work. You have no answers to the key questions so you just ignore them. Your own points have been soundly defeated. Because you have no response to that you wait a few days and then make the same points again.