Tony Blair.

[vinty]

Err no they didn't. Common sense should tell you that if it takes a modern cremating oven two hours to burn one body with a burner that looks like a jet fighter afterburner, then to burn two will take four hours and three will take six hours. Putting five bodies in an oven designed to take one body (they don't fit btw) would probably stop the oven from working and put the thing out. Also, the records for the amount of coke used at the camp are available - and nowhere near enough went to that camp to burn millions of bodies. If we can't do it today - then they surely couldn't do it in a wartime camp. Aren't you a structural engineer? Well why don't you understand the first thing about science?

It's not the same as a modern situation. The majority of the bodies they were dealing with were skin and bone with virtually no fat and very low levels of water, typically less than 50kg or 60kg. They also weren't concerned with decent treatment of the bodies. The Topf and sons ovens were also industrial types originally designed for large animals and adapted for human use. It's also recorded that many bodies were under cremated and archaeologists have specifically commented on that fact. So 90 to 120 minutes is viable and I see no technical problem with that.

You still haven't addressed the contemporary records. Why would Topf say the capacity was thousands per month? Why did they need 52 ovens? Why did they need over 800 stokers? That's 16 per oven. If you were generous and said four per oven that would be three 8 hour shifts per 24 hours. All these facts from different sources confirm the figures. The German soldier who wrote the report knew nothing of Prufer yet their reports, made at different times, for different reasons, concur.

You should do some more research mate, according to the "records" no more than 38 of the 52 ovens were operational at any one time, there were periods of idleness recorded as well as breakdowns.
The Topf ovens were basic coke fired models if you look at some of the original photos of these ovens you can see cremation urns stacked beside the oven, these were for the ashes of the individuals who were cremated, most of what you have posted above is untrue, the claim that you can somehow use human corpses as fuel to cremate other corpses is absurd.
The claim that over a million people were cremated using the 52 Auschwitz ovens doesn't stand up, according to Topf each oven was only guaranteed for 3000 cremations and that is with proper maintenance, regular cleaning ect, so do the sums yourself.
You should also look at the sources of your information, all this stuff about using thin bodies as fuel to cremate fat bodies comes from the same sources that put up the "4 million died here" sign at Auschwitz.
As for the Archaeologists who commented on the fact that some bodies were under cremated , who were these Archaeologists and did they ever see these bodies in person and if they did why didn't they take hair or tissue samples to have them analysed for cyanide poisoning.

 

[WalksWithTurkeys]

With regards to that specific question then I would have to agree with joe. Even though I tend to believe the evidence that there was a determined and deliberate attempt to exterminate the Jews in Europe people should have the right to examine and question such data. Banning such action takes us back to the days when a person could be imprisioned or worse for just questioning the churches stance on anything and everything , just the same as IS are doing now.

The fact that there was systematic extermination of the Jews, and other despised groups including gypsies and homosexuals, is proven beyond all doubt. No half decent historian would doubt that. There are testimonies of those who went through the camps, of those who participated in the extermination, and those who entered the camps at the end of the war. There were the ashes, and skeletons, and corpses, the piles of gold teeth, and clothing and so on. Then there are the records from the Nazis themselves. They were very careful to document everything, it all had to be done by the book.

In principle what you say sounds quite reasonable. However, we have seen that the internet has become not a tool for enlightenment as some hoped, with knowledge shared, but a tool for the dissemination of nut job conspiracy theories and hate. Most people have neither the time nor the critical faculties to examine the content of various hate preachers, and given time, it gets to the stage where people think "Well, it's usually the case that there is truth on both sides". So as time goes on, the true nature of the Holocaust gets blurred. Of course there have been many other massacres such as the mass murders by Stalin and Mao, and the Armenians, the Bengal Famine and so on.

 

[joe-90]

OK Turkey. Please explain how 900,000 people (ten times the cup final crowd) were gassed, dragged manually into a hole in the ground the size of a swimming pool and buried in Treblinka. Then explain why a death camp would forget to build any crematoria. Who designed this camp? Who forgot to build the crematoria? Why do aerial laser scans prove no mass grave was ever dug? Why did no-one see a body that had been gassed? That's 11,000,000 bodies and not one witness. Why did Auschwitz have a hospital? Why wasn't Anne Frank killed on arrival as the legend tells us? If all those Jews were killed - then who the heck is drawing pensions in Israel? Ignore what you have been told as a child. Engage your intellect and answer my questions. (he won't)

 

[mikeey84]

Joe and vinty- serious question- is there any evidence that would convince you that you are wrong. Not just stuff we can find on the net and post here, but anything at all. Think of the most convincing evidence you can.

Would that change your mind?

 

[joe-90]

I would be more than happy to change my mind. I spent most of my life believing, but when I really looked at the so called evidence it was clear that it just wasn't true. I read all the books such as 'five chimneys', saw Schindler's List etc. But it really just makes no sense when you look at the facts. No-one with any intellect can look at the facts without drawing the same conclusion.

 

[Belboz]

Build a time machine, circumcise, issue with Jewish papers then send to Nazi Germany. See what evidence is uncovered...

Just a thought...

 

[WalksWithTurkeys]

OK Turkey. Please explain how 900,000 people (ten times the cup final crowd) were gassed, dragged manually into a hole in the ground the size of a swimming pool and buried in Treblinka. Then explain why a death camp would forget to build any crematoria. Who designed this camp? Who forgot to build the crematoria? Why do aerial laser scans prove no mass grave was ever dug? Why did no-one see a body that had been gassed? That's 11,000,000 bodies and not one witness. Why did Auschwitz have a hospital? Why wasn't Anne Frank killed on arrival as the legend tells us? If all those Jews were killed - then who the heck is drawing pensions in Israel? Ignore what you have been told as a child. Engage your intellect and answer my questions. (he won't)

Unlike you I don't claim to be expert enough about the Holocaust to debate historical details. In fact I, like most people, and without doubt you, know almost nothing. I cannot read German, and have no access to original documents. For that reason I leave it to people who have decades of experience of researching this issues to debate and illuminate this dark part of our history. I have read books on the second world war, and the preceding decades, written by acknowledged authorities. Those are the only sources that interest me.

As for self proclaimed online experts, there are many, and they are best ignored. David Irving was a rather unpleasant example.

 

[mikeey84]

I would be more than happy to change my mind. I spent most of my life believing, but when I really looked at the so called evidence it was clear that it just wasn't true. I read all the books such as 'five chimneys', saw Schindler's List etc. But it really just makes no sense when you look at the facts. No-one with any intellect can look at the facts without drawing the same conclusion.

That is a no dressed up as a yes to make you seem reasonable

 

[ladylola]

With regards to that specific question then I would have to agree with joe. Even though I tend to believe the evidence that there was a determined and deliberate attempt to exterminate the Jews in Europe people should have the right to examine and question such data. Banning such action takes us back to the days when a person could be imprisioned or worse for just questioning the churches stance on anything and everything , just the same as IS are doing now.

The fact that there was systematic extermination of the Jews, and other despised groups including gypsies and homosexuals, is proven beyond all doubt. No half decent historian would doubt that. There are testimonies of those who went through the camps, of those who participated in the extermination, and those who entered the camps at the end of the war. There were the ashes, and skeletons, and corpses, the piles of gold teeth, and clothing and so on. Then there are the records from the Nazis themselves. They were very careful to document everything, it all had to be done by the book.

In principle what you say sounds quite reasonable. However, we have seen that the internet has become not a tool for enlightenment as some hoped, with knowledge shared, but a tool for the dissemination of nut job conspiracy theories and hate. Most people have neither the time nor the critical faculties to examine the content of various hate preachers, and given time, it gets to the stage where people think "Well, it's usually the case that there is truth on both sides". So as time goes on, the true nature of the Holocaust gets blurred. Of course there have been many other massacres such as the mass murders by Stalin and Mao, and the Armenians, the Bengal Famine and so on.

Perhaps I wasn't clear , I'm in agreement only with joe's statement that we should be free to question history or the accepted history and as long as we can provide verifiable evidence and not speculation or conspiracy then that history can be re written. As to the events themselves I fully agree with you , the sheer volume of evidence points to a determined genocide , the early einsatzgruppen records especially were very through.
Joe has asked for evidence of where all the bodies or their remains are and has mentioned something like the equivalent of 23 cities the size of Bristol while also saying that these people emigrated to Israel . Perhaps it would strengthen his position if he were to name 23 new cities or 23 cities that enlarged by the size of Bristol that were built in Israel in the 1940's.

 

[joe-90]

I would be more than happy to change my mind. I spent most of my life believing, but when I really looked at the so called evidence it was clear that it just wasn't true. I read all the books such as 'five chimneys', saw Schindler's List etc. But it really just makes no sense when you look at the facts. No-one with any intellect can look at the facts without drawing the same conclusion.

That is a no dressed up as a yes to make you seem reasonable

Why ask the question if you are unwilling to accept the answer. Now answer the questions I set for Turkey. He doesn't seem able to answer them.

 

[joe-90]

OK Turkey. Please explain how 900,000 people (ten times the cup final crowd) were gassed, dragged manually into a hole in the ground the size of a swimming pool and buried in Treblinka. Then explain why a death camp would forget to build any crematoria. Who designed this camp? Who forgot to build the crematoria? Why do aerial laser scans prove no mass grave was ever dug? Why did no-one see a body that had been gassed? That's 11,000,000 bodies and not one witness. Why did Auschwitz have a hospital? Why wasn't Anne Frank killed on arrival as the legend tells us? If all those Jews were killed - then who the heck is drawing pensions in Israel? Ignore what you have been told as a child. Engage your intellect and answer my questions. (he won't)

Unlike you I don't claim to be expert enough about the Holocaust to debate historical details. In fact I, like most people, and without doubt you, know almost nothing. I cannot read German, and have no access to original documents. For that reason I leave it to people who have decades of experience of researching this issues to debate and illuminate this dark part of our history. I have read books on the second world war, and the preceding decades, written by acknowledged authorities. Those are the only sources that interest me.

As for self proclaimed online experts, there are many, and they are best ignored. David Irving was a rather unpleasant example.

Use your intellect. We are talking about the disappearance of 11,000,000 people. 23 times the population of modern day Bristol. All supposedly disappearing without a trace. Forget your preconceived ideas where you were brainwashed at childhood - and use your brain. Where did they go? Israel apparently, they are claiming pensions to this day.

 

[mikeey84]

OK Turkey. Please explain how 900,000 people (ten times the cup final crowd) were gassed, dragged manually into a hole in the ground the size of a swimming pool and buried in Treblinka. Then explain why a death camp would forget to build any crematoria. Who designed this camp? Who forgot to build the crematoria? Why do aerial laser scans prove no mass grave was ever dug? Why did no-one see a body that had been gassed? That's 11,000,000 bodies and not one witness. Why did Auschwitz have a hospital? Why wasn't Anne Frank killed on arrival as the legend tells us? If all those Jews were killed - then who the heck is drawing pensions in Israel? Ignore what you have been told as a child. Engage your intellect and answer my questions. (he won't)

Unlike you I don't claim to be expert enough about the Holocaust to debate historical details. In fact I, like most people, and without doubt you, know almost nothing. I cannot read German, and have no access to original documents. For that reason I leave it to people who have decades of experience of researching this issues to debate and illuminate this dark part of our history. I have read books on the second world war, and the preceding decades, written by acknowledged authorities. Those are the only sources that interest me.

As for self proclaimed online experts, there are many, and they are best ignored. David Irving was a rather unpleasant example.

Use your intellect. We are talking about the disappearance of 11,000,000 people. 23 times the population of modern day Bristol. All supposedly disappearing without a trace. Forget your preconceived ideas where you were brainwashed at childhood - and use your brain. Where did they go? Israel apparently, they are claiming pensions to this day.

Proof of them claiming pensions?

 

[joe-90]

Do your own research or ask Noseall - he seems to know all about it.

 

[joe-90]

On second thoughts you are not bright enough to use Google.
www.spiegel.de/international/germany/germany-to-pay-772-million-euros-in-reparations-to-holocaust-survivors-a-902528.html

 

[mikeey84]

On second thoughts you are not bright enough to use Google.
www.spiegel.de/international/germany/germany-to-pay-772-million-euros-in-reparations-to-holocaust-survivors-a-902528.html

So 56000 people claiming a pension is proof the holocaust was a conspiracy?