Tragic - outcome might be interesting

[SUNRAY]

Not HDD's. Thyristors, triacs and other backend controls, but the other low current devices always installed in separately isolated compartments. One exception, possibly being PLC's.

The reason I wrote:

But we don't have a clue what the cabinet is,

Was simply as I worked in a meat factory (and also similar in a commercial bakery [factory]), in a

control panel with a 600A 3 phase supply for the conveyors carrying the carcasses.

and the front door contained a CRT monitor for which the components on the back plate had to be carefully positioned to leave space for the CRT housing to close into and below it a bespoke keyboard, standing on the floor of the enclosure was a 286 PC with multiple RS232 ports connecting to the plethora of PLC's sitting amongst the BS88 fuses and contactors etc. The PC contained several HDD's in caddy's which were removed regularly to transfer data with their office system.
Now the funny thing is my first thought when reading OP was; that seems familiar.

I'd really like to agree with

but the other low current devices always installed in separately isolated compartments.

But quite frankly I've worked in far too many control panels where 70mm² bi-rated 3 phase wiring and power components shares the same space as signal cables and; VSD's, DIX4's, 4RM's, level sense relays, PLC's, BMS controllers etc etc to even begin to consider the word

always

Although I'd love to be able to agree.

I don't ever recall any Chiller or AHU OEM panels having any separate enclosures for the supplies/power equipment and the electronics (But I'm sure some are built that way).

 

[flameport]

I don't ever recall any Chiller or AHU OEM panels having any separate enclosures for the supplies/power equipment and the electronics (But I'm sure some are built that way).

They should all be built with separate internal enclosures for power supplies, power, communications, mechanical and so on.
Plenty are not, but that doesn't make it acceptable.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Although I'd love to be able to agree.

I don't ever recall any Chiller or AHU OEM panels having any separate enclosures for the supplies/power equipment and the electronics (But I'm sure some are built that way).

Perhaps the equipment I worked on was better/safer specced?

 

[SUNRAY]

They should all be built with separate internal enclosures for power supplies, power, communications, mechanical and so on.
Plenty are not, but that doesn't make it acceptable.

Why apart from common sense?

 

[flameport]

Why apart from common sense?

Entire suites of product and machinery standards, EU and other directives which will mandate the use of those, and so on.

 

[SUNRAY]

Perhaps the equipment I worked on was better/safer specced?

Maybe and yes I've worked on/built panels as you describe, however when one is employed as 'panel builder' and the job spec includes site visits to repair/maintain/modify existing panels, one doesn't get to pick and chose which panels they work in.

 

[SUNRAY]

Entire suites of product and machinery standards, EU and other directives which will mandate the use of those, and so on.

So product listed as suitable for use in panels without segregation are not to be used that way?
Electronic devices expected to connect directly to mains potential wiring AND ELV control wiring should be fitted where?

 

[ebee]

Well the question should we be asking - do we trust manufacturers, designers etc etc to work to standards? like we did for those making consumer units a while back.
So nowadays the (easy) "answer" is metal consumer units.

Do we trust CE marking - well if it stands for Chinese Export then we might do, otherwise think of a number and make a random guess.

 

[SUNRAY]

Well the question should we be asking - do we trust manufacturers, designers etc etc to work to standards?

Do we trust CE marking - well if it stands for Chinese Export then we might do, otherwise think of a number and make a random guess.

I tend to when products are supplied by the likes of Trend, Honeywell, Telemechanique, Philips etc.

 

[ebee]

Agreed - I think most of us tend to trust the proprietary makes but there are many more out there that we are unsure about. She Who Must Be Obeyed took years before she would consider buying anything from Aldi, Netto, Lidl because they sold brands that were brands she was not familiar with.
Our trust tends to be in familiar UK stuff we`ve been used to, like Nestles before it became Nestle (or so we thought - LOL)

 

[flameport]

So product listed as suitable for use in panels without segregation are not to be used that way?

There are standards for individual components
There are standards for completed machines/panels.

Constructing a panel or machine from parts which meet individual standards does not necessarily mean that the machine as a whole complies with any standard.
It all depends on how it's assembled.

Do we trust CE marking

Same problem applies.
Constructing a panel or machine from components which are all individually CE marked does not confer that marking onto the machine as a whole - that is the responsibility of the machine assembler/manufacturer.

Totally possible to take a box full of standards compliant CE marked components and assemble them into something which doesn't comply with any standards and could even be dangerous.

 

[SUNRAY]

There are standards for individual components
There are standards for completed machines/panels.

Constructing a panel or machine from parts which meet individual standards does not necessarily mean that the machine as a whole complies with any standard.
It all depends on how it's assembled.


Same problem applies.
Constructing a panel or machine from components which are all individually CE marked does not confer that marking onto the machine as a whole - that is the responsibility of the machine assembler/manufacturer.

Totally possible to take a box full of standards compliant CE marked components and assemble them into something which doesn't comply with any standards and could even be dangerous.

Yep totally agree and I've been working within that for 15+ years for products I manufacture.

I have no control over existing products. I'll add that most recent control panels are correctly manufactured and many (probably most of them) contain electronic/ELV products.

 

[mattylad]

Yes there are standards, however having been to many manufacturing companies in the UK over the past 25+ years they do not always know of nor work to them.
I have introduced some to my last 2 employers because they did not have them.

I know of those that would have no problem putting a PC inside an enclosure with a power supply, but of course nowdays everything would be safer to touch, an older control panel may have more dangerous parts inside it and things should have been done with the power off but were not.

 

[SUNRAY]

Yes there are standards, however having been to many manufacturing companies in the UK over the past 25+ years they do not always know of nor work to them.
I have introduced some to my last 2 employers because they did not have them.

I know of those that would have no problem putting a PC inside an enclosure with a power supply, but of course nowdays everything would be safer to touch, an older control panel may have more dangerous parts inside it and things should have been done with the power off but were not.

Can't faultfind on a dead panel