Vaillant ecotec 637 and Megaflo controls

OP, I have a Vaillant ecoTEC 418, VR65, VR10 & VRT392 and probably know more about how they work than Vaillant's UK support & many RGI's! :rolleyes:

A few points which may help you;

1) The Vaillant controls VRC470, 430 or VRT392 provide modulated flow control of the water temperature, independently for HW and CH so the boiler/controls will use a different temp to heat the hot water than heat the rads.

2) On the CH side, the controls attempt to keep a stable room temp by modulating the water flow temp provided to the rads. When the house is up to temp, the rads are often run luke warm, however when there is a big delta between inside/outside temp (i.e. 1st thing in morning / late evening on a cold winters day), the rads will run much hotter to heat or keep the room temp stable.

I would suggest you try balancing your radiators to see if you can increase the delta between flow/return at the boiler to 20C. In order for the boiler to condense, the return temp has to be below 55C, the flow temp is likely to be above 65C on a cold winters day so with only a 10C delta, the boiler won't run in condensing mode. Increase that to (as near as possible) 20C (via balancing / pump speed) and you increase the chances of always running in more efficient condensing mode.

3) Currently your boiler will modulate the burner / gas usage used to heat the water. e.g. your boiler will currently modulate from 25kW down to 12.7kW. It uses the flow/return water temp to work how much to modulate up/down as needed. With the addition of the Vaillant contols, modulation of the water flow temperature also occurs.

4) On the 400 series boilers (which can modulate down much lower, to around 5-6kW), there can be cycling issues when using the VRC430 weather compensation control (see here). I don't know if the newer 470 has fixed the cycling issue(s) or the same happens with a 6xx series but I would be surprised if there wasn't some cycling when there is a mild weather outside! (The control will be requesting low flow temps e.g. 40C and the boilers minimum 12.7kW is likely to fufill that too/very quickly causing the boiler to cycle!)

5) If your whole house calc is 17kW, I would try lowering d.1. from 25kW down to 17 or perhaps 20 and monitor your gas usage on a daily/weekly basis to see how it compares.

6) How many kWh is "£1250pa"? i.e. Gas costs can vary a lot so quoting kWh will give a better indication.

7) If you are from a engineering background, you may find my thread here an interesting read, it goes into technical detail about balancing and setting up the boiler/controls.

Hope this helps!?
 
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UpgradeME, thanks for the link I'll have a good read of it later.

I was a bit worried about fitting the VR 10 into the megaflo so had good look at it today and can see it should be pretty straightforward, took a few
pics too.

So the relays, or temperature switches in my world of process control, are capilliary type. There are two separate relays. One for the water temperature setting and the other is the overheat trip with manual reset, currently wired in series.

I see there are two trains of thought (at least) for wiring in the overheat relay when employing the VR 10.
1. Wire it in series with the DHW 2 port valve actuator control from the VR65. This would rely on the spring return closing the valve which may decide to jam open. The valve position switch is not wired and there is no utilisation for monitoring valve position or interlocking with the boiler (similarly with the CH valve).
or 2. Wire in series with the boiler 230v supply to definitely chop the system which seems preferable to me.

http://www.cotherm.co.uk/uk/library/documentation/products/gtl
click on GLT.pdf

It looks quite feasible that the VR 10 will fit ok,

Incidently I had conversation with Vaillant tech again today as wanted to check a few points re the VRC470 and the size of my boiler. What a complete waste of time, The jobsworth knew nothing, in fact less than I do after finding this forum, maybe I was unlucky.

Two of my rads, one chrome towel rail and one small rad in the airing cupboard are piped in the boiler bypass system and I tried to talk to the guy about this to get a handle on auto bypass system and any settings that may need looking at, :rolleyes: .
 
Its important to remember that only the 400 series boilers have issues with vaillants own controls.

I regularly up grade over sized boilers over sized by others and still get excellent results...most talk about a 20% reduction in kwhs when compensation controls replace on off controls.
 
I see there are two trains of thought (at least) for wiring in the overheat relay when employing the VR 10.

2. Wire in series with the boiler 230v supply to definitely chop the system which seems preferable to me

Remember that the pump is (should be) wired directly to the boiler, cutting the boiler 230v will prevent the pump overun occuring which in turn could cause damage to the boilers heat exchanger.

I have a 'normal' DHW cylinder; as the VR10 was designed for the Vaillant cylinder, I choose to leave in the existing cylinder stat as a fallback 'safety measure' when I updgraded my controls. Here's how I wired mine:


Incidently I had conversation with Vaillant tech again today as wanted to check a few points re the VRC470 and the size of my boiler. What a complete waste of time, The jobsworth knew nothing, in fact less than I do after finding this forum, maybe I was unlucky.

My own experience (and what I see mentioned on here a lot) has been very disappointing when contacting their 'support' for information.
 
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Its important to remember that only the 400 series boilers have issues with vaillants own controls.

I regularly up grade over sized boilers over sized by others and still get excellent results...most talk about a 20% reduction in kwhs when compensation controls replace on off controls.

With a minimum modulation of 12.7kW, how do the 600 series handle the warmer outside temps without a lot of cycling? i.e. when the control requests ~40C flow

I do agree modulating flow controls help with lower kWh, setting up my system correctly along with the new controls has helped me save approx 20%.
 
well they do.. I have several 937s (with weather compensation (with well informed clients) and they do not misbehave as the 400 series do.

In fact it is worth noting that no German boiler modulates very far down and they do have to have compensation controls.Clearly their engineers have balanced the engineering equation and come up with a good solution.


both viessmann and vaillant seem to have delay time to stop short cycling....
 
Remember that the pump is (should be) wired directly to the boiler, cutting the boiler 230v will prevent the pump overun occuring which in turn could cause damage to the boilers heat exchanger.

I have a 'normal' DHW cylinder; as the VR10 was designed for the Vaillant cylinder, I choose to leave in the existing cylinder stat as a fallback 'safety measure' when I updgraded my controls. Here's how I wired mine:

The pump is located and wired within the boiler. I realised there would be no overrun, same as a power failure I suppose.

The overheat trip is at about 90-95C on the megaflo, I believe, which would mean something pretty serious is occurring so what action to take, shut the valve or stop the boiler.
 
it is perfectly acceptable to rely on the boiler over heat stat to protect the cylinder...Modern condensing boilers just wont over heat......
 
it is perfectly acceptable to rely on the boiler over heat stat to protect the cylinder...Modern condensing boilers just wont over heat......

I kept a secondary safety measure to protect my children from potentially getting burned by (unexpected) scalding hot water through the taps rather than protecting my cylinder per se.
 
Looks like overflow plus the fact D2 doesn't conform , gonna have one wet loft space when that blows. :rolleyes:
 
Looks like overflow plus the fact D2 doesn't conform , gonna have one wet loft space when that blows. :rolleyes:

Ok been and taken more pics.
Had a look at megaflo installation guide p13 etc.
Where does the D2 nor conform? If there are hard facts I will get builder back to repipe as required to G3 and guidance section 3.9.
view below boiler
pipe from boiler
 
My interpretation of the Megaflo installation manual based on building regs G3, Hot stored water and where my installation doesn't comply.

1. There should be a vertical pipe drop of 300mm min below tundish before a change in direction eg. an elbow.
2. The pipe material should be copper sized to suit G1/2 Relief valve.
3. If not allowed by BCO to pipe into foul water branch then run in 28mm down to grade/below trapped gulley.

4. The condensate drain from the boiler can run into the FW drain separately.
 
My interpretation of the Megaflo installation manual based on building regs G3, Hot stored water and where my installation doesn't comply.

1. There should be a vertical pipe drop of 300mm min below tundish before a change in direction eg. an elbow.
2. The pipe material should be copper sized to suit G1/2 Relief valve.
3. If not allowed by BCO to pipe into foul water branch then run in 28mm down to grade/below trapped gulley.

4. The condensate drain from the boiler can run into the FW drain separately.

Better get the 'builder' back then , has he got a ticket? (G3)
 

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