Victorian terrace - party wall cracking should I pull out of the sale ?

[kingandy2nd]

Great point. The surveyor I hired might have measured the gap and the sellers had their structural engineer look at it 5 months ago.

Is that long enough of a gap to measure any increases in crack size ?

To measure the cracks to any sort of degree of accuracy you need to fix the point of measurement and use very precise measuring tools as it usually happens over a long period of time.

You may have seen this kind of thing before:

That is unless it's really falling down where the different is rapid and noticeable.

 

[Victoriancracker]

Just compared the two reports again.

Structural engineer report they commissioned:

Vertical 4-5mm wide crack was noticed in the party wall between (no's 14 & 16). The crack was noted near the cross wall dividing the rear outrigger and main house.


However my building survey classified the crack as BRE digest level 4 meaning 15mm-25mm

 

[^woody^]

A surveyor can't comment on structural matters unless he is qualified to do so - typically a Chartered Structural Engineer, IStructE.

That is probably why he wrote that nonsense about monitoring. He knows you are buying the house, and yet he recommends monitoring it - presumably after buying it.

Did this surveyor mention the cause? Roof spread is most likely, foundation movement, bomb damage even if in certain areas. Are the soffits straight, the windows plumb?

Is the roof sagging, is the neighbours loft conversion an issue?

Did he mention Party Wall Act applying for any repairs, and the cost of that?

Has he given any idea of the cause and how that would be dealt with along with the actual repair?

 

[Victoriancracker]

Hey Woody,

There was quite a few different issues that were raised which include:

None of the doors close properly

"There is evidence of bowing to the ceiling at the time of the inspection. The ceiling was secure however this movement is likely to be subject to the movement to the right-hand party wall (see sections R31, R46 and R48). The ceiling would benefit from being taken down, plaster boarded and skimmed. "



"There is evidence of undulation to the front pitch of the roof, however we believe this to be historical"


His recommendations for the cracked party wall were:

"we recommend this be monitored with a digital calliper to ensure this is not progressive. and we recommend this be monitored with a digital calliper to ensure this is not progressive.

Potential Underpin: Allow a provisional sum to potentially underpin the right-hand party wall and re-build subject to monitoring. "


I'm yet to speak to him on the phone about this as I was only sent the report the day I made this thread (panic mode).


I'm not expecting a Victorian home to be pristine, just don't want to inherit a falling structure

 

[^woody^]

I can't see why he's mentioned underpinning when the movement is clearly lateral not vertical. Has he mentioned the roof,the ridge line, bowing purlins, sagging rafters etc?

If he's not a qualified engineer,then he's only giving you generic opinion not advice.

 

[Victoriancracker]

Thanks for the response woody. Do you think it's worth me attaching the report here after stripping out personal info? Or maybe via private message? I feel like I'm a bit out of depth trying to explain the contents of it.

 

[^woody^]

The issue is that any good report from a good surveyor should try and explain not just what is seen, but why things are as they are. This includes exploring (and discounting) possible causes and reasons, and giving potential remedies.

Sometimes things may need further investigation, but typically with the cracking like that there are only a few likely causes, and those causes can be evident, and mentioning other symptoms can help in deciding the overall liabilities to you as the purchaser.

You can post the report if you like, but comments and opinion may add more confusion. But if you feel you can filter the subsequent varied opinion, then yes it may be helpful.

If want to pm, I could have a look but it will be tomorrow, I've got some actual diy lined up today.

 

[Victoriancracker]

Here it is attached. Had to compress the pdf for size restrictions so apologies if images are poor quality.

 

[johnny2007]

Walk away.
Or, drop the offered price substantially.
Your home insurance would be astronomical with those cracks which you must disclose, even if repaired.
Also, the owners should've disclosed this problem immediately.
Speak to your solicitor and see if you can extract any money out of them to cover your loss.
You said they had a survey done and recommendation from a SE, so they were clearly aware.

 

[Victoriancracker]

Walk away.
Or, drop the offered price substantially.
Your home insurance would be astronomical with those cracks which you must disclose, even if repaired.
Also, the owners should've disclosed this problem immediately.
Speak to your solicitor and see if you can extract any money out of them to cover your loss.
You said they had a survey done and recommendation from a SE, so they were clearly aware.

Was afraid to hear this but assumed it would be the case. We might consider a substantial drop. Definitely upset regarding their failure to disclose this as they actually commissioned the engineer in response to a previous buyer having the same concerns. Before this happened they said the buyer pulled out because of mortgage issues but clearly this isn't the case.

Do you think it's worth asking for their record of home insurance costs? Or I assume if they weren't upfront this may not be considered ?

 

[johnny2007]

Was afraid to hear this but assumed it would be the case. We might consider a substantial drop. Definitely upset regarding their failure to disclose this as they actually commissioned the engineer in response to a previous buyer having the same concerns. Before this happened they said the buyer pulled out because of mortgage issues but clearly this isn't the case.

Do you think it's worth asking for their record of home insurance costs? Or I assume if they weren't upfront this may not be considered ?

They're trying to flog a lemon.
They should've disclosed that major defect immediately.
Your solicitor should help you recover your costs.
My advice is to walk away, or take a gamble and buy it for 2/3 of the asking price if the owners agree.
In any case, I would be trying to get the money back.

 

[^woody^]

The report is a homebuyers survey. This is limited and not done by a structural engineer. Some dubious comments, but that's common.

Basically large cracks like that through wallpaper are worrying. They are not historic, and most likely ongoing. Next doors loft conversion could be related.

Either involve a structural engineer to report, buy it on the basis of potential extensive remedial work (in addition to the £100k already identified!), or walk away.

 

[Victoriancracker]

Definitely going to involve a structural engineer. Though we are close to the stamp duty deadline so I can't imagine any works can be remedied if we want to save ££££ on stamp duty. Would only buy based on a large decrease. Sadly I can't imagine them being willing to sell for 100k below purely out of pride.

Tomorrow I might call the engineer they comissioned to ask for further information, though I'm unsure how much they would be willing to disclose to me.

 

[^woody^]

Their engineer does not work for you and you can't rely on his report or any comments he might be prepared to make to you.

 

[kingandy2nd]

If you need a mortgage for this property, you may find the mortgage provider pulls the rug with such a serious property defect, and if there’s 100k of work to be done.

They may well put conditions on the loan where they withhold a proportion of the funds until the work that’s needed is completed. Which is a double-whammy for you as the buyer as not only do you not get all the money you need to borrow up front, you also have to find the money and complete the minimum works before you can get your full mortgage amount.