Victorian terrace - party wall cracking should I pull out of the sale ?

[Victoriancracker]

Just wanted to provide an update. Spoke to the structural engineer that was commissioned for them and asked about the discrepancy in the crack sizes.

He stated that the 4mm measurement was lower down the loft and he couldn't measure higher due to limited access.

He also mentioned that the crack was wider at the top and narrows further down and that he still believes it to be historical however can't be certain unless monitoring happens.

Didn't ask at the time but Im unsure what to think now and what the implications are of a crack that narrows from the top down.

 

[^woody^]

was wider at the top and narrows further down

Walls are leaning outwards

Did this surveyor mention the cause? Roof spread is most likely,

Your surveyor has mentioned roof sag

 

[Victoriancracker]

Walls are leaning outwards



Your surveyor has mentioned roof sag

Walls leaning outwards I'm guessing isn't good ?

Regarding the roof, the report states:

"There is evidence of undulation to the front pitch of the roof, however we believe this to be historical"

 

[oldbutnotdead]

@^woody^ has already raised a critical point which you must remember, it is really really important.
You cannot rely on anything written in the report that the sellers commissioned. In the cover age of that report will be something like 'this report was commissioned by and for the sole use of Mr xxx. No liability for any errors or omissions will be owed to anyone other than Mr xxx.
So, if their surveyor is wrong and the cracks are recent, active and caused or affected by next doors loft conversion you would have no claim against their surveyor because you have no contractual relationship with him/her.
If your survey is indeed a full structural survey prepared by a chartered surveyor then you can trust it, though check for caveats (that monitoring one for instance is a classic bit of wiggle room).
The vendors would be well advised to get an independent company to fit crack gauges and monitor them while they look for the next sucker.
NB Historic cracks would almost certainly have been plastered over and papered (or painted). Cracked wallpaper is more likely evidence of recent movement.
Options are massive price reduction or walk away and chase vendor for your costs, they should have declared that known issue upfront.

EDIT There's another can of worms with the neighbours loft conversion. In the absence of any Party Wall award and documentation, you could end up with a nightmare scenario where the active movement continues, your house becomes unstable and the neighbour starts chasing you for costs for their repairs as well. Which would be unfair but if you buy the place with those defects in place then you acquire the liability for them.

 

[^woody^]

All you have to do is ask the homeowner when they last decorated. The paper has cracked so you'll know that the cracking has progressed since decorated - which must surely be in recent years, not long ago in the past. So not historic.

 

[Victoriancracker]

All you have to do is ask the homeowner when they last decorated. The paper has cracked so you'll know that the cracking has progressed since decorated - which must surely be in recent years, not long ago in the past. So not historic.

I'll ask but I worry they'll answer in the context of this rather than honesty.

I did find an old rightmove listing from 2015 (they purchased in 2016) and it looks like it's not been touched by the current owners in terms of decoration.

 

[johnny2007]

Walk away from this property.
You haven't even passed the threshold and you're having lots of trouble.
Imagine the hidden faults once you move in...

 

[Victoriancracker]

@^woody^ has already raised a critical point which you must remember, it is really really important.
You cannot rely on anything written in the report that the sellers commissioned. In the cover age of that report will be something like 'this report was commissioned by and for the sole use of Mr xxx. No liability for any errors or omissions will be owed to anyone other than Mr xxx.
So, if their surveyor is wrong and the cracks are recent, active and caused or affected by next doors loft conversion you would have no claim against their surveyor because you have no contractual relationship with him/her.
If your survey is indeed a full structural survey prepared by a chartered surveyor then you can trust it, though check for caveats (that monitoring one for instance is a classic bit of wiggle room).
The vendors would be well advised to get an independent company to fit crack gauges and monitor them while they look for the next sucker.
NB Historic cracks would almost certainly have been plastered over and papered (or painted). Cracked wallpaper is more likely evidence of recent movement.
Options are massive price reduction or walk away and chase vendor for your costs, they should have declared that known issue upfront.

EDIT There's another can of worms with the neighbours loft conversion. In the absence of any Party Wall award and documentation, you could end up with a nightmare scenario where the active movement continues, your house becomes unstable and the neighbour starts chasing you for costs for their repairs as well. Which would be unfair but if you buy the place with those defects in place then you acquire the liability for them.

Thanks. Im almost certain we are walking away however I want to be sure. I've spoken to several structural engineers and there seems to be a lack of absolute consensus without longitudinal monitoring.

They also did say that it being in London normalises cracks a bit more (if historical). And when the searches were completed it did state that the entire town suffers from:

"The property is indicated to lie within an area that could be affected by natural ground subsidence. You should consider the following:

"The property is indicated to lie within an area that could be affected by natural ground subsidence. - moderate to high "

So it's difficult for me to fully commit to a decision both emotionally and rationally

 

[jacko555]

Talk to an imsurance company for a quote, and, your lender.
Decision may already be made for you, unless you have a hefty deposit

 

[Victoriancracker]

Talk to an imsurance company for a quote, and, your lender.
Decision may already be made for you, unless you have a hefty deposit

Thanks. I'll ring some insurance companies today. Just so I'm careful with the wording, should I just say there are currently cracks and we are uncertain if they are historical or progressive?

I dont want to give wrong information and no report has confirmed so far that this is progressive.

Thanks

 

[johnny2007]

Thanks. I'll ring some insurance companies today. Just so I'm careful with the wording, should I just say there are currently cracks and we are uncertain if they are historical or progressive?

I dont want to give wrong information and no report has confirmed so far that this is progressive.

Thanks

You have to say exactly what you know.
Don't withhold any information.
However, I think the insurance should be your least worry.
You're not buying a bicycle, you're buying a house and there's no come back on that.
Walk away and ask your solicitor if it's possible to recover some money considering that the owners didn't disclose this major problem.

 

[^woody^]

Bomb Sight - Mapping the World War 2 London Blitz Bomb Census

 

[Victoriancracker]

Bomb Sight - Mapping the World War 2 London Blitz Bomb Census

Checked this. There was a high explosive dropped on another street roughly 40m away. Is that close enough to have an impact ?

 

[^woody^]

That's near enough if it was big enough

 

[sxturbo]

there is some very good advise already given.

reading the report, RICS advise at least £100k requires to be spent on the property, thats an awful lot of money on top of the asking price.

Is the mortgage company likely to approve a mortgage on such a property? it is highly doubtful.

when did the current owners have there structural survey done? they only moved in 4-5 years ago, surely they must know whether the cracks were already there when they bought the house or they appeared after they moved in.

The house isn't a stunner (maybe it is for london standards i dont know) and i cannot see the emotional connection to it when it could potentially financially ruin you.

you know the right thing to do,