Weatherproof light switch

[ban-all-sheds]

I agree there are better ways to do this

Then do it a better way.

but why would reputable firms sell these things if you then need to buy lots of extra bits to make it safe?

Because they don't give a **** about anything except their profits.

The round cable i am talking about is usually white. I dont think this is specifically outdoor cable!!!

As you have already observed, you aren't the only one who wants to use inappropriate cable.

If you're going to buy some Hituf, get some TRS as well, just in case, and keep the Hituf indoors in the warm until the very last moment.

 

[chapeau]

I have seen soooooo many external lights wired up with two core and earth cable????? The wire will be exposed to sunlight but how much damage can this cause?

Only you can decide that as only you, as now, know where the cable is. But you are correct, plenty of t/e out there on outside walls for years with no problem.

If you want an authoritative interpretation of the regulations then you should read the On Site Guide.

Appendix 3, table 3A.

Type of cable: BS 6004 (Twin/Earth)
Uses: For use on exterior surface walls, boundary walls, and the like.

Comments: Protection from direct sunlight may be necessary (my highlight). Black sheath is better for cables exposed to sunlight.

So a blanket "Twin and earth is not suitable for use outside." is an unauthorative interpretation of the regs, and in fact is plain wrong. You need to hang out on here and you will soon work out who to take notice of and who not to

You also don't need to inform the council. (Approved Doc P, an authoritative intepretation of the law)

That hituf is a good choice.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If you want an authoritative interpretation of the regulations then you should read the On Site Guide.

That will be the document which warns readers that it does not ensure compliance with BS 7671, will it?

Appendix 3, table 3A.

Type of cable: BS 6004 (Twin/Earth)
Uses: For use on exterior surface walls, boundary walls, and the like.

I'm not the only one who disagrees that that is good practice.

So a blanket "Twin and earth is not suitable for use outside." is an unauthorative interpretation of the regs, and in fact is plain wrong.

It is neither.

You need to hang out on here and you will soon work out who to take notice of and who not to

Fine - you carry on advising people to do the bare minimum, and work to standards widely held to be inadequate, and leave the rest of us who believe in striving to do as good a job as possible to carry on giving better advice.

You also don't need to inform the council. (Approved Doc P, an authoritative intepretation of the law)

That is not what either the law, or the guidance in Approved Document P says.

The work is notifiable.

 

[Stoday]

That is not what either the law, or the guidance in Approved Document P says.

The work is notifiable.

It's not notifiable according to notes i and j of approved Document P.

Providing, that is, he extends an existing circuit, doesn't extentend it from a kitchen or speial location.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It's not notifiable according to notes i and j of approved Document P.

Before we look at that, let's consider the actual law.

Schedule 2B is quite clear that it's not on the list of work which is exempt from notification. It is a "special installation", and it is not "pre-fabricated equipment sets and associated flexible leads with integral plug and socket connections".

In Approved Document P, Note i says:

The installation of equipment attached to the
outside wall of a house (for example security
lighting, air conditioning equipment and radon
fans) is not notifiable provided that there are
no exposed outdoor connections and the
work does not involve the installation of a
new circuit or the extension of a circuit in a
kitchen or special location or associated with
a special installation.

Surely you aren't seriously claiming that an exposed outdoor cable connecting a switch and a light, both of which are installed outdoors, is not an exposed outdoor connection?

What that note means is that installing equipment on the outside wall of a house is not notifiable if the wiring for it just runs through the wall and into the back of it, i.e. none of the wiring is exposed outdoors.


Note j says:

The installation of a socket outlet on an
external wall is notifiable, since the socket
outlet is an outdoor connector that could be
connected to cables that cross the garden
and requires RCD protection.

so I'm not sure how that's relevant.

 

[BS3036]

Surely you aren't seriously claiming that an exposed outdoor cable connecting a switch and a light, both of which are installed outdoors, is not an exposed outdoor connection?

Well, in the meaning in common use in the BS7671 regulations, a connection is the joining together of conductors.

The thing exposed in this case, as you say yourself, is a cable, not a connection. Note j goes on to clarify that in the case of an external socket, a connection IS exposed, because it is a socket.

It may well be that the author of that document mis-interpretted the actual law, but the final meaning, however illogical, is clear.

 

[chapeau]

It may well be that the author of that document mis-interpretted the actual law, but the final meaning, however illogical, is clear.

And it is most certainly authoritative.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Well, in the meaning in common use in the BS7671 regulations, a connection is the joining together of conductors.

But there is no consistency of the use of that term with such a meaning in the document in question.

e.g.:

0.3 The diagrams in Appendix A give an
indication of the sorts of electrical services
encountered in dwellings, some of the ways
they can be connected..

b. permanent labels, for example on earth
connections and bonds...

3.11 In relation to ‘embedded’ generation, the
Regulations require persons operating ‘switched
alternative’ sources of energy in their installations
to prevent a parallel connection occurring with
the distributor’s network...

...heat-resisting flexible cables are required for
the final connections to certain equipment..

For the arrangement shown, this applies to the consumer unit and the wiring connecting it to the supplier’s equipment.

The thing exposed in this case, as you say yourself, is a cable, not a connection.

So there is nothing in the use of the words "connection", "connector", "connected" etc in Approved Document P which can lead you to (reasonably) think that "connection" can only mean "the joining together of conductors".

It may well be that the author of that document mis-interpretted the actual law,

There is no doubt that he did, because the actual law makes no mention of a distinction between exposed outdoor connections and none, no matter what "connections" might mean.

but the final meaning, however illogical, is clear.

It only seems clear to people who interpret it in an illogical way.

Firstly, as can easily be seen by reading the document, there is nothing in it which can lead you to logically think that "connection" can only mean "the joining together of conductors".

Secondly, if you do think it means that, then what on earth is your interpretation of "exposed outdoor connections"?

A connection between conductors which is outdoors and exposed?

What you're doing is interpreting something in a way which is illogical and which leads to the situation where you think you could notify work which involved the installation of exposed connections between conductors.

Since you brought up the subject of what BS 7671 says about connections, maybe you'd like to read what 410.3.5 and 417 says about that.

If you'd suddenly like to forget BS 7671, maybe you'd like to consider if an exposed connection between conductors would comply with P1.


No - it's all crazy - the possibility that you might have "exposed outdoor connections" cannot mean that you might have "exposed outdoor connections between conductors". Such an arrangement would be so grossly unsafe - do you really think that the authors of AD P thought they needed to clarify the situation where you'd not done something grossly unsafe and illegal?

 

[chapeau]

And that most certainly is not authoritative

 

[BS3036]

Secondly, if you do think it means that, then what on earth is your interpretation of "exposed outdoor connections"?

I already pointed out that the author of that document uses Note j to explain what he/she meant, by giving an external socket as an example; i.e. a point which is 'exposed' outside at which an electrical connection (with a plug) can take place.

Anyway I think you're clutching at straws here. And I also know that you always want the last word, so here's your chance...

 

[Steve]

I agree there are better ways to do this but why would reputable firms sell these things if you then need to buy lots of extra bits to make it safe?

Because they are generally selling them to people who KNOW they need extra bits to make them safe.

Also, it would be wasteful.

They'd have to ship weatherproof double socket outlets with 3 cable and 3 flex glands, because they could be used with flex or cable, and they could be on a ring final with a spur off them.

OR they could be supplied with a single flex. 5 glands wasted.

Oh, they'd also have to ship it with 3 weatherproof SWA glands, and 3 indoor SWA glands.

This is why you buy this shizzle yourself, because every situation is different.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I already pointed out that the author of that document uses Note j to explain what he/she meant, by giving an external socket as an example; i.e. a point which is 'exposed' outside at which an electrical connection (with a plug) can take place.

Note j is not a clarification of Note i - it's just another note in a series of them.

And anyway - when a plug is inserted the connections are not exposed. Nor are they exposed when a plug is not there, as the socket will be shuttered.

The key point in Note j is the possibility of it giving rise to cables which run outside.

Just as Note f makes clear that the notification of work in sheds & garages depends on there being cables running outside.

Just as Note g highlights that cables crossing a garden are notifiable.

Do you really think that when the author wrote Note i the exposed connection he had in mind was an exposed connection between conductors, something which would be illegal anyway?

Or do you think, when looking at Notes f, g, i & j that what he was trying to clarify was the significance of cables running, or potentially running, outside?

Why, when that is both consistent, and something which would make sense given the reason for the regulations in the first place, do you resist it so much?

Anyway I think you're clutching at straws here.

Hardly - I'm not the one choosing an interpretation which is inconsistent and illogical.

And I also know that you always want the last word

Not at all, but I'm certainly not going to be put off refuting your assertions by you saying that.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

This is why you buy this shizzle yourself, because every situation is different.

Perhaps they should sell them with no glands and no grommets, so you'd have to buy the specific type of entries you needed.

Like MK Masterseal, for example.

 

[Steve]

The ones I really dont like are those with the flexible seal cable entries. The flexible seal degrades and lets water in. And is not suitable for maintaining the IP rating of the box. But a DIYer will see it and think "oh its got a cable seal built in look".

 

[camel307]

I asked one question and got a few sensible and very helpful replies which were spoiled by a stream of bickers and ego fuelled "I know more than u mentality" type comments!

WHat type of site is this? Is it to help people and have sensible discussions or prove you know the most??

Plus some people seem to sepnd their life on here...surely experts are out there doing the work and have little time for this....?