What is the best Brexit deal we can realistically achieve?

[SirGalahad]

The best condition, would be that they've got to have a job. If the EU had allowed this provisio in the freedom of movement regulations (and I think it's actualy supposed to be in there) then we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place

It is in there - proviso but the UK decided we need cheap labour and lots of it, Guess what we have high employment with falling real wages. Real wages have not recovered for over a decade.

 

[JohnD]

I think it's actualy supposed to be in there)

perhaps you should look up the terms for the free movement of labour in the EU, to save yourself the embarrassment of making inaccurate guesses.

Start here:
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/displayFtu.html?ftuId=FTU_3.1.3.html

Tell us what you object to in section B.

 

[Judy in the sky]

You, arse end and Mightyblab managed to close down the discussion last time with your pages of incessant abuse.
Are you intent on repeating that achievement?

Says Wannabehimmyagainandagain. The single biggest abuser on the bloody forum.

 

[Doggit]

Childish snide comments demean you John. This is supposed to be a polite discussion.

The article supports my thinking in that it referes to "workers", yet the EU have insisted that there should be complete and unrestricted freedom of movement, and all we're trying to do, is control migration, not to stop it.

 

[JohnD]

Vague and unsubstantiated allegations demean you. This is supposed to be an adult discussion.

the EU have insisted that there should be complete and unrestricted freedom of movement

show me where you think "the EU" insisted that. Remembering that the UK is a part of the EU.

 

[transam]

Judith has to lie - again. Nosey waits patiently (sighs) whilst Judith tries to find a thread where Nosey disputes/discusses any termination payment demand from the EU.



Judith likes to pluck names out of the air and make accusations and it won't be the first time either. Silly nonsense from Judith. Are you from Essex Judith?

Leaving the EU is going to be expensive for the UK. That's all I know.

aha noseall rides to the rescue like the lone ranger

have u John D and wim a watsit found out what the EU negotiation position is for the EU nationals living in the UK

blimey u three blokes must have to have all yer hats custom made def'not off the shelf

u would never find one big enough to fit yer big eads

 

[noseall]

aha noseall rides to the rescue like the lone ranger

why don't you help your mate Judith find that alleged post of mine.

 

[transam]

why don't you help your mate Judith find that alleged post of mine.

she is my mate what alleged post ? I can help

 

[wobs]

You mean to stay within the EU and go against the WILL OF THE PEOPLE!

Sweden have ignored two referendums as they realised that to carry them out would be stupid. They have continued to be a functioning a democracy.

 

[SirGalahad]

George Osborne the failed economist and chancellor own economic plans required net migration of 150k a year and based his Austerity policies on the now totally debunked work by Prof Ken Rogoff

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22223190

Politicians have created a renty economy that grows primarily through population growth and debt growth.

 

[wobs]

George Osborne the failed economist and chancellor own economic plans required net migration of 150k a year and based his Austerity policies on the now totally debunked work by Prof Ken Rogoff

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22223190

Politicians have created a renty economy that grows primarily through population growth and debt growth.

Which is great, but doesn't address how immigration is a bad thing.

 

[SirGalahad]

Which is great, but doesn't address how immigration is a bad thing.

What do you mean by immigration being a bad thing?

My view is clear as expressed earlier - the current government economic policy requires immigration, this is on purpose.

You cannot take policies in isolation as they often have externalities.

I have always been of the opinion like uncontrolled flows of hot money, uncontrolled flows of people can lead to sub optimal outcomes or exploitation. Which comes back to my original question I posed, what sort of society do we want.

 

[Doggit]

Which is great, but doesn't address how immigration is a bad thing

Immigration is a double edged sword. Politicians work on the simplistic basis that you need people in work to support an ever increasing aging population, and as the UKs population isn't growing fast enough, then the growth needs to fuelled by immigration. Except that immigrants tend to have larger families, so that requires not only more housing, but more infrastructure, more schools, more hospitals, that then need more doctors and nurses. But because we haven't trained the doctors and nurses, we then need to import them from abroad, and so the cycle continues endlessly. Often, immigrants that come here for work, then bring their families with them, and then they are entitled to in work benefits that outstrip what they are putting into the economy.

We also have a lot of immigrants that are selling the Big Issue, and they are then entitled to the supposed in work benefits. Hence the reason that controlled immigration is needed.

And of course, then we get to the fact that Immigrants are needed to do the jobs that the home grown benefit scroungers won't do, because it's too much like hard work. So, sometime immigration is a good thing. sometimes it's a bad thing, and sometimes, it's a necessity.

 

[JohnD]

Politicians work on the simplistic basis that you need people in work to support an ever increasing aging population

And some other politicians work on the simplistic basis that you don't need economically active younger people, and an aging population of non-working pensioners, increasingly frail, will somehow manage to run their own nursing homes, dig their own graves, and pay their own pensions and benefits.

 

[SirGalahad]

Immigration is a double edged sword. Politicians work on the simplistic basis that you need people in work to support an ever increasing aging population, and as the UKs population isn't growing fast enough, then the growth needs to fuelled by immigration. Except that immigrants tend to have larger families, so that requires not only more housing, but more infrastructure, more schools, more hospitals, that then need more doctors and nurses. But because we haven't trained the doctors and nurses, we then need to import them from abroad, and so the cycle continues endlessly. Often, immigrants that come here for work, then bring their families with them, and then they are entitled to in work benefits that outstrip what they are putting into the economy.

We also have a lot of immigrants that are selling the Big Issue, and they are then entitled to the supposed in work benefits. Hence the reason that controlled immigration is needed.

And of course, then we get to the fact that Immigrants are needed to do the jobs that the home grown benefit scroungers won't do, because it's too much like hard work. So, sometime immigration is a good thing. sometimes it's a bad thing, and sometimes, it's a necessity.

An anecdote re immigrants. On BBC Radio 5, Nicky Campbell show a manager of a residential home called in to discuss the issue about immigration. She said that one of the biggest complaint was that when people came to visit they said why can't their loved ones be looked after by white people. She said that she would love to employ local people but no one was willing to work the job at the rates going. Finances were tight and that's all she could offer.

Now this throws up alot of issues. Are the local workers just not interested in working in social care or is the wage too low. Now if the wage is too low -why is it? Is it too low because there are lots of immigrants willing to work these low wages and thus depress wage inflation or is it because residential care is not well funded so that's the only level of wages that can be offered.

We rely heavily in the NHS and social care on foreign workers. They have not taken jobs from the locals because these locals were either unwilling or unskilled to do so. So what do we do?