What is this - an external isolator?

[SUNRAY]

Is there a "CU", or some equivalent, inside that box?

It contains several MCBs; 10A for the 13A socket and a number of 4A's feeding a relay contact each to operate Christmas lights and ELV transformers for garden bollards etc.

Anyway, as I said, if one feels one has to have 'a CU' in the garden, then I would personally prefer it to be inside some suitable enclosure, rather than having an "IP66 CU" screwed to a wall or fence

Kind Regards, John

I understand the comment and have myself installed many CU's [or equivalent] in larger enclosures but surely an IP66 enclosure is an IP66 enclosure.

 

[333rocky333]

Most things are available if one looks hard enough! However, would you really be happy with an "IP66 CU" in your garden, or any garden you had anything to do with?

As Rocky said, one could put a CU (or any other sort of 'distribution equipment') in a suitable outdoor enclosure, but I'm not sure that I would really want even that - and, as I said, I can't recall having seen such in any UK domestic garden - have you?

Kind Regards, John

I think our old pal BAS said he put a Sarel box in his front garden.
Probably see it on Google Earth

 

[JohnW2]

It contains several MCBs; 10A for the 13A socket and a number of 4A's feeding a relay contact each to operate Christmas lights and ELV transformers for garden bollards etc.

Fair enough. I'll accept that as being 'some equivalent' to a CU.

I understand the comment and have myself installed many CU's [or equivalent] in larger enclosures but surely an IP66 enclosure is an IP66 enclosure.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Given my experiences with 'outdoor electrics' over the decades (regardless of alleged IP ratings), I am pretty cautious, and what I was meaning was that if I really felt the need for a CU ('or equivalent') outdoors, I would probably favour "an IP66 CU inside an IP66 enclosure". On the whole, I attempt to avoid 'exposed to the elements' kit of that sort, even if doing that involves extra cable runs to the house and/or convenient outhouses.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

I think our old pal BAS said he put a Sarel box in his front garden.

Maybe he did - although I don't recall that.

I can but repeat that I don't recall having personally seen anything approaching 'a CU' (i.e. involving MCBs etc.) in any sort of enclosure in an ordinary domestic garden - but, as I've said, maybe that's because I have not been exposed to enough domestic gardens!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[333rocky333]

Maybe he did - although I don't recall that.

Found it 2008, bit before your time here, unfortunately the pics are gone, I recall he held his pictures off site of the forum, as he was not pleased with the forums system at the time
https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/seeing-as-how-you-all-like-pictures-so-much.127965/page-4

 

[JohnW2]

Found it 2008, bit before your time here, unfortunately the pics are gone, I recall he held his pictures off site of the forum, as he was not pleased with the forums system at the time https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/seeing-as-how-you-all-like-pictures-so-much.127965/page-4

Well found. Thanks - as you say, a bit before my time.

It's interesting to see that, in line with what I recently wrote to SUNRAY, it seems that BAS shared my 'cautious belt-and-braces' approach, because in that ancient thread he wrote (complete with typo ) "... But everthing inside the box is IP rated, so closing the lid wouldn't be essential.".

Kind Regards, John

 

[333rocky333]

Well found. Thanks - as you say, a bit before my time.

It's interesting to see that, in line with what I recently wrote to SUNRAY, it seems that BAS shared my 'cautious belt-and-braces' approach, because in that ancient thread he wrote (complete with typo ) "... But everthing inside the box is IP rated, so closing the lid wouldn't be essential.".

Kind Regards, John

Yeah, but he also says the door wont shut with the commando plug in the socket

 

[SUNRAY]

Fair enough. I'll accept that as being 'some equivalent' to a CU.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Given my experiences with 'outdoor electrics' over the decades (regardless of alleged IP ratings), I am pretty cautious, and what I was meaning was that if I really felt the need for a CU ('or equivalent') outdoors, I would probably favour "an IP66 CU inside an IP66 enclosure". On the whole, I attempt to avoid 'exposed to the elements' kit of that sort, even if doing that involves extra cable runs to the house and/or convenient outhouses.

Kind Regards, John

The pictured enclosure it the only protection, for McBs, DIN rail terminals and relays. As said before the vast majority of my work has been commercial and if the job is done correctly with the correct products the weather issues are not common, I won't insult by saying non existant. Working with, sometimes very large, control panels in the open on a tall office block is common and the contents are far from IP4 rated, just like the traffic light control pillars and additionally they usually have significant vent holes.The important thing is to provide drainage holes on the offchance water may get in.

 

[JohnW2]

Yeah, but he also says the door wont shut with the commando plug in the socket

He does - but that's presumably the point he was making about it not mattering that the door could not be closed in that situation. It's a pity I can't see the pics, since I would have thought there would have been some way of positioning/orientating the commando socket so as to remove that problem - it sounds as if the box was a reasonable size ("400 x 300 x 150"), such that I would have thought that a commando socket (with plug) could have fitted in 'sideways' (with the door closed).

Given his behaviour in subsequent years, it's rather interesting to see that, in that thread, he was 'cross-examined' about whether or not he had notified the work (which, being outdoors, was presumably notifiable pre-2013) and eventually admitted that he hadn't (but that it was compliant with Part P and he had created an EIC!)

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

The pictured enclosure it the only protection, for McBs, DIN rail terminals and relays.

I realise that, which is why I said that I tend (because of past experiences) to be more cautious than that, and to have "IP66 things within an IP66 enclosure". As you say ...

.... if the job is done correctly with the correct products the weather issues are not common,

True, but I would say a lot more common than some of the incredibly rare and improbable hypothetical issues we have recently been discussing in this forum.

.... The important thing is to provide drainage holes on the offchance water may get in.

That can be a bit of a two-edged sword. The last couple of RCD trips (maybe more) I've experienced because of things going wrong in outdoor accessories has been due to spiders and/or various insects getting in through drainage holes and then setting up house and multiplying dramatically inside them!

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

As said before the vast majority of my work has been commercial and if the job is done correctly with the correct products the weather issues are not common, I won't insult by saying non existant.

True, but I would say a lot more common than some of the incredibly rare and improbable hypothetical issues we have recently been discussing in this forum.
Kind Regards, John

I can very much assure the modus operandi would change dramatically within the commercial sector, and especially controls, if lack of weather resistance was in any way common. As mentioned before control panels on the top of commercial building are a very VERY common occurance, they come in all shapes and sizes from a 2" JB to wardrobe, and beyond, sized multiple door units weighing hundreds of Kg and frequently with many holes for switches and lamps drilled through the front door. These survive for many years without 'common' water ingress problems and I truly don't see it should be any different in any other electrical genre.
In reality it's all down to quality and workmanship and, I'll add a term here that I know you love so much John, Best practice.

 

[JohnW2]

I can very much assure the modus operandi would change dramatically within the commercial sector, and especially controls, if lack of weather resistance was in any way common. ...... In reality it's all down to quality and workmanship and, I'll add a term here that I know you love so much John, Best practice.

I think you may have missed the point I was making, since I agree with what you are saying.

I agree that it is not "in any way common" (my "True, but...") if things are done properly (i.e. in a fashion which at least some people would describe as "best practice") but was merely suggesting that, in my opinion, it would be even (probably far) "less common" for any problems to arise because, say, a brass banjo had not been used with an SWA gland attached to a metal box.

... but that does not really alter the fact that I personally generally favour 'belts and braces' approaches when they are possible and reasonably practicable. However, that's a personal thing. I suspect that the same may be true in the design of some of the things used in commercial situations such as you describe - e.g. they may not rely on a single 'seal' to prevent water ingress.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

I think you may have missed the point I was making, since I agree with what you are saying.

I agree that it is not "in any way common" (my "True, but...") if things are done properly (i.e. in a fashion which at least some people would describe as "best practice") but was merely suggesting that, in my opinion, it would be even (probably far) "less common" for any problems to arise because, say, a brass banjo had not been used with an SWA gland attached to a metal box.

... but that does not really alter the fact that I personally generally favour 'belts and braces' approaches when they are possible and reasonably practicable. However, that's a personal thing. I suspect that the same may be true in the design of some of the things used in commercial situations such as you describe - e.g. they may not rely on a single 'seal' to prevent water ingress.

Kind Regards, John

John.
My interpretation of this post says you are totally contradicting yourself.
Initially you are advocating botching by not being be arsed to bother to install any sort of earth connexion in contravention of 'best practice' or MI's and presumably dumping the items supplied in the gland pack in the scrap metal bag.
Next you advocate doubling up on the IP rating by spending a lot of money on a totally unneccessary and larger enclosure.

Having encountered the problem on a number of ocassions of a poor or absolutely no earth connexion to an enclosure where the installer simply followed your inappropriate suggestion and relied on a painted surface or unprotected steel, including plated or galvanised, that has rusted [and on more than one ocassion rusted right through to the point the hole is bigger than the gland/nut], I'd say your approach of botching has caused me personally a hell of a lot more problems [and risk] than a little bit of water ingress, "less common" comes nowhere near my current thoughts.

I live and work in the real world and have regularly found myself repairing other peoples horrible slapdash crap. Removing a 95mm² 4C SWA from a panel so it can be re-installed properly is not a job to be taken lightly. One of my 'last resort botches' to overcome such ignorance has been to drill and tap the threaded part of the gland to add a lug.

Please do me a favour and stop saying the banjo [or some other item] to provide electrical continuity is not required. Simply adding a lockring in a metal box may work for the initial testing but it is far from the reliable solution you seem to think it is.

 

[plugwash]

What I can't fathom is what the fundamental difference is between steel conduit and SWA? it seems to be the "done thing" to use banjos with SWA but not with steel conduit.

 

[SUNRAY]

What I can't fathom is what the fundamental difference is between steel conduit and SWA? it seems to be the "done thing" to use banjos with SWA but not with steel conduit.

It certainly used to be the way but as the conduit ages the joints become less reliable. I still find it quite often and I believe it was still acceptable under 16th.

The main difference is the number of joints and how tight they are. However as mentioned so many times already both methods have to be done correctly to get proper current carrying capability.